Close
Login
Register

lets be honest to ourselves.

RIZIN, UFC, Bellator, ONE Championship, PFL, and many more!

lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby DeceptaCon » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:49 pm

Has MMA really evolved from the Golden era or devolved?

I mean its fair to say that a prime Ken Shamrock, Fedor, Shogun, Penn, GSP, Aldo and Anderson could still beat shit down legs in their respective weight classes. The only possible exceptions to the rules would be DC and Jon Jones, they are highly evolved MMA fighters. The problem was that DC was an already experienced Olympic wrestler and Jon Jones might have never been a clean fighter so there's the problem.

Then we have these new breed fighters that are super specialists in only one aspect of MMA you know kinda of like back in the early days but even more specific.
1. Khabib (wrestler/grappler/sambo style
2. Conor (very advanced precision timing counter puncher)
3. Ryan Hall (submission master)

These guys are basically newer versions of prime Matt Hughes, Joe "The Irishman" Hurley (also lost to Nate Diaz) and Rani Yahya.

Now lets look at the X-factors:
1. Tony Ferguson (straight killer but lacks striking defense)
2. Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone (probably right now the most evolved MMA fighter but at the tail end of career)

So the real question you must ask yourselves is which current fighters are more evolved than a prime Fedor, Anderson, Penn and GSP?

You could make a case for Yoel Romero and Robert Whittaker but Yoel is 51 years old.
Spoiler:
Image

Spoiler:
Image

Are you ready for the last great deception?
User avatar
DeceptaCon
10th Professional Linker Victory
10th Professional Linker Victory
 
Posts: 17317
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:33 pm
Location: Stalking Ker in the Mall of Germany
Accolades: Pillar of Linker
Fantasy C-League Champion: Feb/Sep 2016, Apr 2018
Survivor

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby PBells » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:53 pm

Always thought this so-called evolution of the sport was majorly overhyped. Training has evolved, but actual fighting has become steadily more sterile and safer. So I guess overall it's devolved. :idea:
User avatar
PBells
Moderator
 
Posts: 40630
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:09 pm
Location: Columbus, OH
Accolades: Fantasy A-League Champion: July 2017, June 2018
Fantasy B-League Champion: Sep. 2016
Fantasy C-League Champion: June 2016
Pick-Em Champion: May 2019 (Inaugural), June 2019

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby JonB » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:11 pm

There were a lot more incomplete fighters in the golden era that thrived. Most fighters now cannot get away with having huge holes in their game, and still get to the highest level. Nearly everyone is well-rounded now with some specializing in a specific aspect. I think it's fair to say the skill floor has risen a lot, but not necessarily the ceiling. I agree with you that most of the GOATs would still kick a lot of ass if they were 10 or 15 years younger. But now we have a ton of fighters with similar experience and training.

It can be kind of vanilla at times though. We see a lot more people with a strong background in something (e.g. kickboxing champ, Div 1, ADCC, Olympic medalist), but they don't wreck face as often as I'd like. Especially strikers. :-( The differences are becoming very subtle.
Image
User avatar
JonB
6th Degree Black Belt
6th Degree Black Belt
 
Posts: 5459
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:40 pm
Location: North Las Vegas, NV

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby KingOfPancrase » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:15 pm

Agreed with OP. 1997 Ken Shamrock at 230 pounds beats people into the living death.
Image
User avatar
KingOfPancrase
2nd Professional Linker Victory
2nd Professional Linker Victory
 
Posts: 9054
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:35 pm
Location: Valhalla
Accolades: Pillar of Linker

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby abcd » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:38 pm

Mighty mouse
Cejudo
Moraes
Tj I took epo so I can't lose dillashaw
No love
Holloway
Edgar
Mini Mendes
Volkanovski
Zabit
Dustin p
Justin g
Pettis
Wonderboy
You mentioned Tony and cowdad
Izzy
Gastelum
Whittaker
Yoel
A.Smith
Stipe

All of these foos are well rounded most of em got mad heart. .and the list goes on.

People fight a little safer because it's more dangerous, because everyone is well rounded, everyone is in shape, everyone is motivated, there are way more eyes on the sport and they feel the pressure.its easy to fight when no one is watching. Nobody wants to be the next meme or video on YouTube. But the overall skill level is definitely higher.

You can argue the old guard were more warriors but this guard is more skilled and more dangerous.

And the only reason Eddie got finished in one is because his chin is done. That shouldn't surprise anyone
abcd
Green Belt
Green Belt
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:09 am
Accolades: Fantasy Draft C-League Champion: May 2018 (Final)

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby abcd » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:45 pm

KingOfPancrase wrote:Agreed with OP. 1997 Ken Shamrock at 230 pounds beats people into the living death.

:lol:
abcd
Green Belt
Green Belt
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:09 am
Accolades: Fantasy Draft C-League Champion: May 2018 (Final)

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby yoseph » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:01 am

abcd wrote:
KingOfPancrase wrote:Agreed with OP. 1997 Ken Shamrock at 230 pounds beats people into the living death.

:lol:

Ken shamrock would have lost every fight in the USADA era
User avatar
yoseph
4th Degree Black Belt
4th Degree Black Belt
 
Posts: 4012
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:17 pm
Location: 209
Accolades: Fantasy B-League Champion: Dec. 2015, May 2019, Aug. 2019
Fantasy C-League Champion: Jan. 2017, Mar. 2017
Survivor (x2)

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby PainDog » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:17 am

There was a similar post to this before
post2878525.html?

and then there is this video

Image
https://amenra.bandcamp.com

Damir Ismagulov Time

Saygid Arslanaliev Time

Khabib Nurmagomedov Time
User avatar
PainDog
Mod Emeritus
 
Posts: 9134
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:10 am
Location: Doha, Qatar
Accolades: Fantasy A-League Champion: Dec 2017, Apr 2018
Fantasy B-League Champion: Nov 2017

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby KingOfPancrase » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:20 am

yoseph wrote:
abcd wrote:
KingOfPancrase wrote:Agreed with OP. 1997 Ken Shamrock at 230 pounds beats people into the living death.

:lol:

Ken shamrock would have lost every fight in the USADA era

Not if he was 28 :lol:
Image
User avatar
KingOfPancrase
2nd Professional Linker Victory
2nd Professional Linker Victory
 
Posts: 9054
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:35 pm
Location: Valhalla
Accolades: Pillar of Linker

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby KingOfPancrase » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:22 am

PainDog wrote:There was a similar post to this before
post2878525.html?

and then there is this video


That mindset is the same as the liberal mindset. Everything is progression just because "it be der current year hurr durr" .
Image
User avatar
KingOfPancrase
2nd Professional Linker Victory
2nd Professional Linker Victory
 
Posts: 9054
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:35 pm
Location: Valhalla
Accolades: Pillar of Linker

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby PainDog » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:03 am

If we are fair there have been a few major milestones that turned the rudimentary forms of vale tudo and shoot wrestling into modern MMA.

The early UFC events were really nothing pioneering. The UFC stood as a platform to showcase how different martial arts systems fared against one another. That concept had existed as long as martial arts systems.


The first milestone was the attempt to be well rounded.

To be honest many of the shoot fighters in Japan at least had an understanding that a fighter would need to be capable on the feet as well as on the ground. The early Pancrase fighters were more well rounded than the early UFC counter parts, even if Royce Gracie's single style of BJJ was more effective at that time.

Combining grappling and striking is also not a new concept and has been a component of various hybrid martial arts for thousands of years.

Since MMA competition provided the avenue to actually test what techniques worked and didn't the sport was able to evolve incredibly quickly.

The second milestone is more about the organizations than the athletes.

The early UFC event had almost no rules, and organizations like Pancrase had odd modified pro-wrestling rules, including not being able to hit with a closed fist, ten counts, etc. As MMA began to evolve into a somewhat homogenous sport the rules began to become similar to each other. However, different the PRIDE and UFC rules were in 2001, they were much similar each other than the early Pancrase rules were to the early UFC's.

The third milestone is weight cutting.

In the early days of MMA fighters fought around the weight they walked around. Eventually fighters like Tito Ortiz and Matt Hughes would bring weight cutting over from amateur wrestling into MMA with great success.

It didn't take long for weight cutting to be an essential part of being able to compete in MMA.

If we look at the athletes before these milestones were in place I think they would have a hard time competing with the fighters of today, at least competing against fighters in their same weight classes.

However talented a fighter like Frank Shamrock may have been he was too small to be competitive against fighters competing at light heavy weight now. Fighters like Rekic are well rounded elite athletes that would outweigh him by over 30lbs.

If we considered the fighters after the major milestones were in place, I think they would be very competitive against todays fighters. Frank Shamrock in his prime was likely too small to compete against the LHWs in todays MMA, but fighters like Chuck Liddell, Rampage Jackson, and Randy Couture were not.

In terms of technique the sport hasn't evolved as much as many claim. Techniques used by Khabib which were seen as some sort of revolution, were already being used even by Brock Lesnar

post2927683.html?

Fighters like Conor and Wonderboy were also supposed to bring in a revolution of fighters that had excellent distant management, there was even a term coined for it, the "movement movement".

Then both of them lost to one of the earliest MMA combinations of strong wrestlers with a good overhand.
Image
https://amenra.bandcamp.com

Damir Ismagulov Time

Saygid Arslanaliev Time

Khabib Nurmagomedov Time
User avatar
PainDog
Mod Emeritus
 
Posts: 9134
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:10 am
Location: Doha, Qatar
Accolades: Fantasy A-League Champion: Dec 2017, Apr 2018
Fantasy B-League Champion: Nov 2017

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby EvilGorilla69+1 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:17 am

KingOfPancrase wrote:Agreed with OP. 1997 Ken Shamrock at 230 pounds beats people into the living death.
Τίποτα
User avatar
EvilGorilla69+1
7th Degree Black Belt
7th Degree Black Belt
 
Posts: 5673
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:38 am
Accolades: Survivor (as The Smurf)

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby EvilGorilla69+1 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:33 am

I agree with OP and a bit with Paindog


first of all, I give 0 fucks about emotions when it comes to this. It's just shit that I've seen.. For instance..Ruiz.... is a good boxer... his punches are like 1000x less powerfull than Iron Mike's...anyway... back to reality.


Royce Gracie has a MUCH better striking game than Maia's and is much less scared,much more aggresive. Maia lost the titles mainly cause he was timid,how u call it..especially the colby fight... he was outstriking him and then decided to wrassle..anyway....

So our first champ....would still be a top 5 or a champ, in our times... if you disagree,go rewatch his fights or go have a lobotomy.


Ken Shamrock

Highly well rounded,sick wrassling,sick subs,big power ... top 5 LHW or HW and very possibly a champ... Cormier would have only the flash knockout,working for him....shamrock at the age of 55,or some shit, has still never been blacked out KO'ed... so Danny would propably get his kneecap busted...anyway....


Dan Severn

He would be a top 10 at the current HW division. just cause... one of the greatest greco roman ever(american)


Mark Coleman

Molestation city. No real boxing... just yea...get some son... Olympic level Wrestling... was beating fools in the UFC, like 8 eyars ago, approaching 50 and fighting top 5 - top 10 competition,while giving them a run for their money..(Shogun,Bonnar,Couture,nt so much)


Kevin Randleman

Dark Horse. Top 5 HW, even in these days,had he be fighting... Almost killed Fedor. 1-1 with Crocop. former HW champ.


Maurice Smith

He could easily be a top 10, today.... He was barely a top 10 in his time, even though he was the champ..(ken,bas,frank,koshaka,funaki,suzuki,mezger,severn,randleman - from the top of my head)


Randy Couture

One of the best,obviously.... He holds a win over the current ONEfc HW champ :P , 5 time UFC champ. you can't say with a str8 face that he woudlnt molest people.Randy could very possibly skin Jones alive


Warmaster Josh baby faced assasin Barnett

former HW champ, he was a top 10, like 3 years ago,at 40.




These are the first openweight - HW champions, of our sport...(in the UFC)... I won't carry on cause we are approaching active fighers territory..


hell....Arlovski was a top 10 at the age of 40, as well. ..



so yea.... fancy techniques and flashy finishes will be emerging.... but this is tbe fighting game... it aint a demostration.. i dont care if u can make a jumping 8 hit combo.. the reciepe is the same..



Keep distance..dictate the pace,hit hard and efficiently,change levels,control,punish & repeat. (Ken shamrock was the first to do that shiz....,Randy developed it and made it more punchy orientatedd and less explosive,per se..,Cain coppied randy,Fedor evovled that and translated it into ABSOLUTE DOMINATION)


overhand - sambo throw - kicks - ''Stand up'' .. repeat.take mount,finish him.
Τίποτα
User avatar
EvilGorilla69+1
7th Degree Black Belt
7th Degree Black Belt
 
Posts: 5673
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:38 am
Accolades: Survivor (as The Smurf)

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby EvilGorilla69+1 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:43 am

Vitor Belfort is still the wildest thing the sport has ever seen and he has been competing(resigned with ONEfc), since 1997, or some shit. ..
Τίποτα
User avatar
EvilGorilla69+1
7th Degree Black Belt
7th Degree Black Belt
 
Posts: 5673
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:38 am
Accolades: Survivor (as The Smurf)

Re: lets be honest to ourselves.

Postby Mr Meow » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:55 am

EvilGorilla69+1 wrote:Vitor Belfort is still the wildest thing the sport has ever seen and he has been competing(resigned with ONEfc), since 1997, or some shit. ..



He keeps trying to get ONE to have him and Roy Jones Jr in a boxing match :lol: :lol:
Officially 8-2 in sig bets. *pats back* 5 time A league champion. :gold: :gold: :gold: :gold: :gold:
User avatar
Mr Meow
3rd Professional Linker Victory
3rd Professional Linker Victory
 
Posts: 10893
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Lin Kuei training camp
Accolades: Fantasy A-League Champion: Nov 2015, Dec 2015, Jan, Apr 2016, May 2016, Nov 2016
Fantasy B-League Champion: Apr 2017, Feb, 2018, Nov 2018
Highest Overall Fantasy Score 2016
Survivor (x3)
First Linker to Successfully Defend Survivor Belt

Next

Return to MMA Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users