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Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby EvilGorilla69+1 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:09 am

as far as grappling is concerned, the difference is not that great.....the striking though...???? come on,dude...


the hardest hitting lhw of all times - (Rumble) - struggled to translate that ko power in HW... ...

He couldnt even take Arlovski out....


HW >> LHW
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''Double wrist lock,to an americana, switched to kimura,turned to figure 4,transitioning to an armbar.
while attemting an Ude-garami, & a keylock.. opponent escapes so switch to Gyaku ude-garami and a reverse keylock and get that: 'bent armlock',like a V1 armlock,a chicken wing,a some sort of paintbrush submission attempt or hammerlock or a twisting hammerlock and you win by reverse arm entanglement
''

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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby PainDog » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:14 am

EvilGorilla69+1 wrote:as far as grappling is concerned, the difference is not that great.....the striking though...???? come on,dude...


the hardest hitting lhw of all times - (Rumble) - struggled to translate that ko power in HW... ...

He couldnt even take Arlovski out....


HW >> LHW


To be honest the weight difference means more in grappling than in striking, it's why there is no upper limit for weight classes in boxing and many kickboxing organizations.

I'll add that the Deontay Wilder is 6'7" and usually weighs somewhere around 220 but weighed in at 214 in his last fight against the 241 Luis Ortiz.

Wilder knocked out Ortiz.
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby EvilGorilla69+1 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:02 am

PainDog wrote:
EvilGorilla69+1 wrote:as far as grappling is concerned, the difference is not that great.....the striking though...???? come on,dude...


the hardest hitting lhw of all times - (Rumble) - struggled to translate that ko power in HW... ...

He couldnt even take Arlovski out....


HW >> LHW


To be honest the weight difference means more in grappling than in striking, it's why there is no upper limit for weight classes in boxing and many kickboxing organizations.

I'll add that the Deontay Wilder is 6'7" and usually weighs somewhere around 220 but weighed in at 214 in his last fight against the 241 Luis Ortiz.

Wilder knocked out Ortiz.



(they were both fighting at HW and we are talking about much more technical stikers... boxers are.. )

So I will agree with your analysis, but I don't think it applies in MMA. Wreslting is about size but it's about stamina and explosiveness, as well.

The way that Hunt hits, or Ngannou..or Roy Nelson, back in his prime..That's so fucking scary... it almost makes Rumble's punches look like girlie slaps.

Most LHWs + MWs + WWs are HWs in real life, anyway..
Spoiler:
They just ain't that naturaly strong, or some shit.. or are mentaly weak... so they choose to cut weight.

So we are basicaly splitting hairs here..



The real reason that fighters lose weight is not cause they are scared. Nor cause they are mental midgers. They are fighters at the end of the day. They pretty much want to take the most appropriate weight class for them, so their chances of a belt, or more money, will increase.


So if u want fighters to stop cutting weight, you will have to expect some changes in their contracts and in the way that they are getting paid. Compensate these people and give them job security and I guarantee you that most of them will come to bang.
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''Double wrist lock,to an americana, switched to kimura,turned to figure 4,transitioning to an armbar.
while attemting an Ude-garami, & a keylock.. opponent escapes so switch to Gyaku ude-garami and a reverse keylock and get that: 'bent armlock',like a V1 armlock,a chicken wing,a some sort of paintbrush submission attempt or hammerlock or a twisting hammerlock and you win by reverse arm entanglement
''

https://notouchbutt.blogspot.gr/
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby jblaze » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:36 am

deadzone wrote:
PainDog wrote:
jblaze wrote:The reason heavyweights used to be small is right around 250 pounds people seem to naturally gas out. Really if you are 230 pounds you can fight at heavyweight without cutting.


What is crazy is the fear guys like Lesnar and Carwin brought to the HW division. Despite not being very good fighters like Mir thought they needed to weigh over 265lbs to be competitive and when asked about fighting at HW in 2011, OSP made it clear he wanted nothing to do with the weight class, because he was afraid of guys cutting from 280lbs.

None of the guys cutting down to 265lbs had any sustained success...and as the weight of the champions show, somewhere around 240lbs seems to be the idea weight. Lighter weight HWs could likely do well, but almost everyone weighing 230lbs and less is cutting to 205lbs.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/771 ... ure-in-mma


Easy to say sitting behind your keyboard. Go get hit by lesnar or carwin and then talk about how they weren't good.

George Forman was a shitty boxer but had everyone in the HW div shook because he had life altering power.

I don't have the body to fight a real heavyweight because I am 5'9 and 190 something pounds. If I was 230 pounds from my perspective it would make more sense to fight in a weight class where I would have a speed advantage and not gas out. Every heavyweight who is not in world class shape will start to gas out in the second round. Of course someone like Carwin has amazing power if he didn't he would not have had a career because his skill level is primitive. Anyway if you can avoid being held on the ground or knocked the fuck out it's the best size to be in the weight class. Fedor used to be 230 pounds, Crocop 230 pounds, Big Nog used to be at 230, Cormier in shape is around 230 pounds / thread.
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby DeceptaCon » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:35 pm

:heartrate:
1098765432 wrote:
dipset52 wrote:Nick is back and he’s fighting DC

Smoke moar weed

Nick is going to slam DC, break his hip then choke him out.
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby hawdrigoh » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:18 pm

PainDog wrote:
hawdrigoh wrote:
PainDog wrote:I don’t understand why there should be any assumptions that the elite 230lbs men cutting down to LHW would struggle with the 240lbs men at HW.


PainDog wrote:just a general assessment that the assumption that by default HWs are too big and/or too powerful for your average LHW isn't right.


Eh sorry but you’re all over the place. Is it the elite 230 lbs men cutting to LHW or the average LHW? What do you mean by “average”? Size? Skill? Ranking?


Yeah, I get your point.

I was kind of rushed when writing out the original post, and didn't really convey the message I was trying to send very well. I had a few different ideas in my mind while writing it and they all get mixed up, and like you said the result was something all over the place.

I have seen many, of course not you, but many, who argue that a certain fighter like Jon Jones wouldn't do well at HW just due to a default size disadvantage.

So while I had elite LHWs like Jon Jones or Alexander Gustafsson in mind, I was really trying to make two general points.

One is that most of the more successful HWs aren't pushing the HW limit of 265lbs, and with that in mind the size difference between most successful HWs and most LHWs (in the UFac at least) isn't unusually large when compared to other weight classes.

I used former UFC HW champions as a sample for successful HWs and to calculate the HW average weight which I used throughout the post (though I should have used 244 instead of 240)
I used self reported weights of LHWs who are currently ranked in the UFC top ten, such as Glover, OSP, Shogun, etc. to get the average weight of around 230lbs for LHWs...

When I mentioned rankings, I was referring to the UFCs rankings.

Skill...its a hard one to define...because you would have to consider so many variables...

hawdrigoh wrote:I don’t think anyone would argue things are true by default. All one can say is that there are many LHW’s (some very good) who would be at a disadvantage against some of the top HW’s because of a size discrepancy. Of course it’s not always true and it also depends on things like style match-ups. It’s not black and white. It’s also obvious that a 20 lbs difference has different significance depending on the weight classes being compared.


I agree with you when you say "All one can say is that there are many LHW’s (some very good) who would be at a disadvantage against some of the top HW’s because of a size discrepancy. Of course it’s not always true and it also depends on things like style match-ups. It’s not black and white.".

But I do think many people make certain generalizations, and one of those is that HWs are too big and powerful by default for LHW sized fighters. I am not going to go dig up examples, but trust me those assertions have been made several times.


hawdrigoh wrote:Anyways I’m going to step out and let you take over from here because there’s something you’re trying to say but need to find the right way of saying it. Just a suggestion that's hopefully helpful; when you give a long write-up you may want to give a summary at the beginning so the reader doesn’t have to try and figure out what you’re trying to say by reading the entire thing (like an abstract for a research paper…it might also help sort out exactly what you’re trying to say). Also, you may want to take a look at data analysis techniques and how to deal with outliers :beer:


I agree that I should have made everything clearer, and I should have stated my premise right from the beginning...

I regret even mentioning Lesnar as an outlier...like I said he just stood out as far as being the only one cutting weight to reach 265...and admittedly I did miss Shane Carwin who also cut to 265.

I did keep referring to HWs as weighing 240, when to be fair I should have been saying 244, or even higher if I included Carwin, which probably would have raised to the average to around 245 as you mentioned in your first post.


:tup: No worries, I understand posts are often hurried.

I agree that just generically saying “LHW fighter X wouldn’t do well at HW because those guys would be too big for him” is silly, and also that the relative size difference between most HW and LHW’s is not much different than most other weight classes. The HW limit being 265 can give a false sense that gap in weight between the average LHW and HW is bigger than it actually is.

It seemed like you may have also been hinting that elite LHW’s should have similar success against HW’s but it's clear now you’re not. You’re only claiming that people assuming LHW’s wouldn’t do well at HW based on size alone is incorrect.
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