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Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

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Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby PainDog » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:56 am

Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight
In nearly every weight class the champion of that weight class cuts considerable weight to make the required weight limits. The one exception to that rule is the Heavy Weight (HW) champion. In the history of UFC heavy champions, only one, Brock Lesnar, cut weight for their championship winning match. Other former HW champions like Tim Sylvia and Rico Rodriguez would end up cutting weight to make the 265lbs limit, but were less than 260lbs when they actually won the belt.

If we look at the weigh in weights of past champions up until present we have:
¬ Mark Coleman weighed in at 240lbs at UFC 12 - didn’t cut weight
¬ Maurice Smith weighed in at 220lbs at UFC 14 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Randy Couture weighed in at 220lbs at UFC Ultimate Japan – didn’t cut weight
¬ Bas Rutten weighed in at 203lbs at UFC 20: Battle for Gold – didn’t cut weight
¬ Kevin Randleman weigh in at 213lbs at UFC 23: Ultimate Japan 2 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Randy Couture weighed in at 220lbs at UFC 28: High Stakes – didn’t cut weight
¬ Josh Barnett weighed in at 243lbs at UFC 36: Worlds Collide – didn’t cut weight
¬ Ricco Rodriguez weighed in at 243lbs at UFC 39 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Tim Sylvia weighed in at 252lbs at UFC 41 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Frank Mir weighed in at 253lbs at UFC 48 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Andre Arlovski weighed in at 238lbs at UFC 51 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Tim Sylvia weighed in at 256lbs at UFC 56 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Randy Couture weighed in at 222.4 at UFC 68 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Antonio Nogueira weighed in at 237lbs at UFC 81 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Brock Lesnar weighed in at 265lbs at UFC 91 – cut weight
¬ Frank Mir weighed in at 251lbs at UFC 92 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Brock Lesnar weighed in at 265lbs at UFC 100 – cut weight
¬ Cain Velasquez weighed in at 244lbs at UFC 121 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Junior Dos Santos weighed in at 239lbs at UFC on Fox 1 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Cain Velasquez weighed in at 240lbs at UFC 155 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Fabricio Werdum weighed in at 236lbs at UFC 188 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Stipe Miocic weighed in at 241lbs at UFC 198 – didn’t cut weight
¬ Daniel Cormier weighed in at 246lbs at UFC 226 – didn’t cut weight

If we just regard Lesnar’s weight at 265lbs, then the average weight of the 23 HW champions listed above would be 238lbs. If we remove Lesnar who is an outlier we would have an average weight of 236lbs.

If we regard the year 2000, when the unified rules of Mixed Martial Arts were introduced, as the starting point of the “modern era” then the average weight of the HW champion in the modern era is 244lbs (again considering Brock Lesnar’s weight to be 265lbs). If we remove Brock the average weight would be 241lbs.

Despite Brock Lesnar being an outlier his presence alone doesn’t skew the statistics much.

The average HW champion weighs around 240lbs, which is around the weight I think most would assume, when considering the more recent champions like Stipe Miocic, Fabricio Werdum, Junior Dos Santos, and Cain Velasquez.

If we consider other weight classes in the UFC there is a tendency to cut significant amounts of body weight to make the required weight limit.

Verified weight differences between the dehydrated weight cut weight and the actual weight when entering the cage have been released by the California State Athletic Commission (CSAC).

For example, Bantam Weight contender Marlon Mores weighed 155lbs on fight day at UFC Fresno after weighing in at 135.4lbs at the official weigh ins. That weigh cut represented a loss in 14.5% of his total body weight.

As you move up the weight classes fighters are able to cut larger and larger amounts of weight.

As an example, let’s just assume Brock Lesnar cut the same amount of weight as Marlon Mores to make the 265lbs limit. That would mean Brock entered the cage weighing 285lbs and had to cut 20lbs to make the HW limit. Brock would have only had to cut 7.5% of his body weight to make the 265lbs weight limit. If Brock cut the same body weight percentage as Marlon he could have cut nearly 43lbs and weighed in at 242lbs.

If Daniel Cormier cut to the LHW limit of 205lbs from the same weight that he won the UFC HW belt, he would have had to cut 17% of his body weight. Almost in the range of the 14.5% Marlon cuts to fight at Bantam Weight, or when a fighter like Darren Till is weighing over 200lbs and is fighting at 170lbs and cutting over 15% of body weight.

If we consider the size difference between the different weight classes, there would be a smaller average size difference in terms of body weight percentage between LHW and HW than between any other two weight classes.

The average LHW competing in MMA weighs somewhere around 230lbs, at least according to self-reported accounts. Fighters like Alexander Gustafsson have admitted to getting up to 240lbs and a noticeably fatter Jon Jones weighed in at 238lbs in a 2016 grappling match against Dan Henderson.

Most LHWs likely are cutting from somewhere around 225lbs to make the LHW 205lbs limit. That means they are cutting around 9% of their body weight, which with regards to body weight percentage is 6% less than the average cut fighters make in lower weight classes like BW.

Even if we consider 240lbs to be the optimal weight of the average HW fighters and 225lbs to be the ultimate weight for the average heavy weight that is only a body weight difference of 15lbs. If 150+lbs fighters are cutting to 135lbs and 170+lbs fighters cutting to 145lbs, there would be over a 15lbs difference. Even if the difference was only 15lbs that 15lbs would represent 8.8% of the body weight for someone weighing 170lbs and around 10% for someone weighing 150lbs.

The 15lbs would only represent only around 6% of total body weight for someone weighing 240lbs and would be around 6.6% of total body weight for someone weighing 225lbs.

In other weight classes with a greater body weight percentage difference, fighters have been quite successful when cutting less weight and moving up closer to their natural weight class, such as current MW champion Robert Whitakker and WW contender Rafael Dos Anjos.

There is little reason to assume that LHWs not depleting themselves at all could not perform well against HWs considering that on average there is only a 10 to 15 average weight difference.

In the relatively few examples of elite LHWs moving up to fight at HW, the LHWs have been successful such as the multiple HW title runs of Randy Couture who started his career at HW (who would be on the smaller side of most LHWs fighting today), Anthony “Rumble” Johnson beating a somewhat resurging Andre Arlovski, and of course the great success that the two-division champion Daniel Cormier has had at both HW and LHW.

When considering the size differences and the success of the limited data pool that we have, I don’t understand why there should be any assumptions that the elite 230lbs men cutting down to LHW would struggle with the 240lbs men at HW.

The power differences are clearly exaggerated as well, when Daniel Cormier not only confirmed that the vaunted HW power puncher Stipe Miocic didn’t hit any harder than Anthony “Rumble” Johnson, but that it was also comparable to the around 200lbs Dan Henderson. To put punching power in perspective in boxing a 218lbs Mike Tyson is regarded as one of the hardest punchers in HW boxing history, in a sport where there is no HW limit.



Finally, I want to point out that using height as an indicator for size especially overall size is bit limited.

Mixed Martial Arts perhaps more than any other sport allows for a multitude of different body types. You could have a short and squatty wrestler like Chad Mendes matched up against a tall and lanky striker and submission grappler Zabit Magomedsharipov. Mendes having a denser body would in all likelihood have a strength advantage would could help in any sort of wrestling exchange, and of course Zabit would have the range advantage which is beneficial on the outside. However, even in terms of striking power the shorter man can have its advantages on the inside like was the case in most of Mike Tysons successful boxing matches and Daniel Cormier’s victory over Stipe.

Mass is a much better indicator of size because it takes into consideration the entire density and volume of the object that is being measured.

If Daniel Cormier has a mass of 246lbs or112kgs, that means the number is taking into consideration the totality of matter that forms his body. It would take into consideration his height plus the other dimensions of his form like width which relates to his volume, plus the density of the substances that occupy his volume such as muscle and bone density.

Height only considers height, how tall the object that is being measured is. Since it doesn’t take into consideration the other indicators of size like density or other dimensions of volume it is a rather poor indicator on its own of size and if height instead of mass were used as classes for fighters to compete in, height classes would offer such absurd match ups as 126lbs Yuta Sasaki vs. 205lbs Ilir Latifi who are both 5’10”.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YFBej4wFP0

http://www.dalton.k12.oh.us/pages/uploa ... 0hints.pdf

https://www.calculator.net/mass-calculator.html

https://www.tapology.com

https://www.mmafighting.com/2017/12/29/ ... ufc-fresno
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby dipset52 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:27 am

Nick is back and he’s fighting DC
209 Stockton
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby jblaze » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:31 am

The reason heavyweights used to be small is right around 250 pounds people seem to naturally gas out. Really if you are 230 pounds you can fight at heavyweight without cutting.
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby PainDog » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:47 am

jblaze wrote:The reason heavyweights used to be small is right around 250 pounds people seem to naturally gas out. Really if you are 230 pounds you can fight at heavyweight without cutting.


What is crazy is the fear guys like Lesnar and Carwin brought to the HW division. Despite not being very good fighters like Mir thought they needed to weigh over 265lbs to be competitive and when asked about fighting at HW in 2011, OSP made it clear he wanted nothing to do with the weight class, because he was afraid of guys cutting from 280lbs.

None of the guys cutting down to 265lbs had any sustained success...and as the weight of the champions show, somewhere around 240lbs seems to be the idea weight. Lighter weight HWs could likely do well, but almost everyone weighing 230lbs and less is cutting to 205lbs.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/771 ... ure-in-mma
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby deadzone » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:28 am

PainDog wrote:
jblaze wrote:The reason heavyweights used to be small is right around 250 pounds people seem to naturally gas out. Really if you are 230 pounds you can fight at heavyweight without cutting.


What is crazy is the fear guys like Lesnar and Carwin brought to the HW division. Despite not being very good fighters like Mir thought they needed to weigh over 265lbs to be competitive and when asked about fighting at HW in 2011, OSP made it clear he wanted nothing to do with the weight class, because he was afraid of guys cutting from 280lbs.

None of the guys cutting down to 265lbs had any sustained success...and as the weight of the champions show, somewhere around 240lbs seems to be the idea weight. Lighter weight HWs could likely do well, but almost everyone weighing 230lbs and less is cutting to 205lbs.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/771 ... ure-in-mma


Easy to say sitting behind your keyboard. Go get hit by lesnar or carwin and then talk about how they weren't good.

George Forman was a shitty boxer but had everyone in the HW div shook because he had life altering power.
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby hawdrigoh » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:36 am

PainDog wrote:If we regard the year 2000, when the unified rules of Mixed Martial Arts were introduced, as the starting point of the “modern era” then the average weight of the HW champion in the modern era is 244lbs (again considering Brock Lesnar’s weight to be 265lbs). If we remove Brock the average weight would be 241lbs.

Despite Brock Lesnar being an outlier his presence alone doesn’t skew the statistics much.

The average HW champion weighs around 240lbs, which is around the weight I think most would assume, when considering the more recent champions like Stipe Miocic, Fabricio Werdum, Junior Dos Santos, and Cain Velasquez.


Most studies try to not remove outliers and if they did for some reason then they would do it from both sides (feel free to take out Couture). The average weight is probably around ~245 lbs. You also forgot Shane Carwin in that list.


PainDog wrote:When considering the size differences and the success of the limited data pool that we have, I don’t understand why there should be any assumptions that the elite 230lbs men cutting down to LHW would struggle with the 240lbs men at HW.


I don’t think you want to generalize it quite this far but most of these guys need to overcome their pansy mentality of cutting weight to truly find out. A fighter’s style of fighting likely also plays a key factor when deciding whether to drop down and also whether they will have success against most of the 240 lbs men. Would Volkan ever get close to the number 2 HW in the world if he moved up and everything else stayed the same? Who knows...

At the end of the day there is only one undeniable conclusion. Fedor.
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby PainDog » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:39 am

deadzone wrote:
PainDog wrote:
jblaze wrote:The reason heavyweights used to be small is right around 250 pounds people seem to naturally gas out. Really if you are 230 pounds you can fight at heavyweight without cutting.


What is crazy is the fear guys like Lesnar and Carwin brought to the HW division. Despite not being very good fighters like Mir thought they needed to weigh over 265lbs to be competitive and when asked about fighting at HW in 2011, OSP made it clear he wanted nothing to do with the weight class, because he was afraid of guys cutting from 280lbs.

None of the guys cutting down to 265lbs had any sustained success...and as the weight of the champions show, somewhere around 240lbs seems to be the idea weight. Lighter weight HWs could likely do well, but almost everyone weighing 230lbs and less is cutting to 205lbs.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/771 ... ure-in-mma


Easy to say sitting behind your keyboard. Go get hit by lesnar or carwin and then talk about how they weren't good.

George Forman was a shitty boxer but had everyone in the HW div shook because he had life altering power.


It has nothing to do with me, it has everything to do with them getting horribly beaten by men much smaller than themselves and then disappearing, and there has been a top fighter cutting to 265lbs since.

You could say Lewis and Ngannou...but neither is particularly skilled and both would probably better weighing less than the 265lbs limit.


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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby PainDog » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:48 am

hawdrigoh wrote:
PainDog wrote:If we regard the year 2000, when the unified rules of Mixed Martial Arts were introduced, as the starting point of the “modern era” then the average weight of the HW champion in the modern era is 244lbs (again considering Brock Lesnar’s weight to be 265lbs). If we remove Brock the average weight would be 241lbs.

Despite Brock Lesnar being an outlier his presence alone doesn’t skew the statistics much.

The average HW champion weighs around 240lbs, which is around the weight I think most would assume, when considering the more recent champions like Stipe Miocic, Fabricio Werdum, Junior Dos Santos, and Cain Velasquez.


Most studies try to not remove outliers and if they did for some reason then they would do it from both sides (feel free to take out Couture). The average weight is probably around ~245 lbs. You also forgot Shane Carwin in that list.


Rutten was removed when I gave the average weight of champions of the modern era or after the year 2000.

You're right I did forget that Carwin won the belt.

hawdrigoh wrote:
PainDog wrote:When considering the size differences and the success of the limited data pool that we have, I don’t understand why there should be any assumptions that the elite 230lbs men cutting down to LHW would struggle with the 240lbs men at HW.


I don’t think you want to generalize it quite this far but most of these guys need to overcome their pansy mentality of cutting weight to truly find out. A fighter’s style of fighting likely also plays a key factor when deciding whether to drop down and also whether they will have success against most of the 240 lbs men. Would Volkan ever get close to the number 2 HW in the world if he moved up and everything else stayed the same? Who knows...

At the end of the day there is only one undeniable conclusion. Fedor.


I was making a generalization about this automatic reasoning that LHWs are too small to compete at HW; not one saying that every LHW would be successful at HW.

Would Volkan do well at HW? I dont know he was getting ready for a HW title fight in Titan FC before going to the UFC.
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby hawdrigoh » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:54 am

^ Yes change that to Couture since you're starting from 2000. He's still as much of an outlier relative to the average as Brock is.

Titan FC and the UFC are a little different...and the interesting question is if he would ever get close to #2 at HW in the UFC :tup:
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby PainDog » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:18 pm

hawdrigoh wrote:^ Yes change that to Couture since you're starting from 2000. He's still as much of an outlier relative to the average as Brock is.

Titan FC and the UFC are a little different...and the interesting question is if he would ever get close to #2 at HW in the UFC :tup:


I showed the number without Brock because he stood out as the only champion cutting weight.

Keeping him in the dataset would make more sense tha removing anyone.

Keeping Brock really doesnt change anything much.

If we looked at a list of the greatest HWs instead of just those that won the UFC belt then the average weight would be even less.

Fedor Emelianenko, Cro Cop, and Big Nog all competed at their bests weighing somewhere in the 230s.

As far as Volkan is concerned we should ask is he even the third most talented fighter in the LHW division?

He deserves his ranking primarily due to his win against Jimi Manuwa which was a quick knockout. Could Volkan have just knocked out a top HW in the opening minutes of a fight? I dont see why not.

If Werdum rushed into a punch like he did against Stipe, or he managed to catch someone like Arlovski it wouldn't surprise me.

Would he be able to just knockout Jimi in a rematch? I kind of doubt it.

Would he be able to knockout a HW contender in the same fashion? It's unlikely but definitely possible.
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby hawdrigoh » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:45 pm

PainDog wrote:I showed the number without Brock because he stood out as the only champion cutting weight.

Keeping him in the dataset would make more sense tha removing anyone.

Keeping Brock really doesnt change anything much.


It's probably best to keep him in imo but it's your study :) 240 vs 244 is not extremely significant.

PainDog wrote:If we looked at a list of the greatest HWs instead of just those that won the UFC belt then the average weight would be even less.

Fedor Emelianenko, Cro Cop, and Big Nog all competed at their bests weighing somewhere in the 230s.


Sure but if you want to change the parameters then you have to consider how much weight MW/LHW were cutting outside of the UFC (which is already using some guess-work in the UFC).

PainDog wrote:As far as Volkan is concerned we should ask is he even the third most talented fighter in the LHW division?

He deserves his ranking primarily due to his win against Jimi Manuwa which was a quick knockout. Could Volkan have just knocked out a top HW in the opening minutes of a fight? I dont see why not.

If Werdum rushed into a punch like he did against Stipe, or he managed to catch someone like Arlovski it wouldn't surprise me.

Would he be able to just knockout Jimi in a rematch? I kind of doubt it.

Would he be able to knockout a HW contender in the same fashion? It's unlikely but definitely possible.


Ok I think we agree doing well in Titan FC probably isn't a good measure of success. One can certainly go through a lot of analysis for whether people deserve their rankings or not...it makes you wonder what makes someone elite, how much style matters, and how the current high end LHW's would really do at HW.
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby 1098765432 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:23 pm

dipset52 wrote:Nick is back and he’s fighting DC

Smoke moar weed
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby PainDog » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:23 am

hawdrigoh wrote:Ok I think we agree doing well in Titan FC probably isn't a good measure of success. One can certainly go through a lot of analysis for whether people deserve their rankings or not...it makes you wonder what makes someone elite, how much style matters, and how the current high end LHW's would really do at HW.


My premise wasn't really about any specific LHW fighter, just a general assessment that the assumption that by default HWs are too big and/or too powerful for your average LHW isn't right.

Even if we said that the average HW is 250 and the average LHW is 230 that would still make them closer in size in terms of body weight percentage than even the weight class limits between MW of 185 and LHW at 205.

Those 20 pounds are going to make a bigger and bigger difference the smaller you get. Imagine someone like TJ Dillashaw fighting someone like James Vick or Glieson TIbau.

In my own opinion I think MW, LHW, and HW are all somewhat diminished in talent at the moment.

The UFC's MW division was perhaps at its peak just a few years ago when you had Luke Rockhold, Yoel Romero, Chris Weidman, Jacare, Mousasi, etc. all competing at a high level. Now Rockhold and Yoel are expected to move up to LHW, Weidman is still injured, Jacare is aging, and Mousasi is gone.

Granted MW has some exciting prospects like Adesanya and Costa.

When I look at the LHW top ten....yeah...Volkan could be the third best LHW in this division...
1 Alexander Gustafsson
2 Volkan Oezdemir
3 Glover Teixeira
4 Ilir Latifi
5 Jan Blachowicz
6 Jimi Manuwa
7 Ovince Saint Preux
8 Mauricio Rua
9 Corey Anderson
10 Misha Cirkunov
11 Dominick Reyes
12 Patrick Cummins
13 Tyson Pedro
14 Gadzhimurad Antigulov
15 Sam Alvey

...a nice mix of relics from a bygone era like Shogun and fighters like Jan Blachowicz and Corey Anderson. Maybe Dominick Reyes can bring some additional excitement to the division.

As far as HW goes...
1 Stipe Miocic
2 Derrick Lewis
3 Curtis Blaydes
4 Francis Ngannou
5 Alexander Volkov
6 Alistair Overeem
7 Mark Hunt
8 Junior Dos Santos
9 Marcin Tybura
10 Tai Tuivasa
11 Aleksei Oleinik
12 Andrei Arlovski
13 Stefan Struve
14 Shamil Abdurakhimov
15 Justin Willis

Even more dinosaurs than LHW...in my opinion only Volkov and Blaydes stand out as potential contenders.

Ruslan Magomedov looked like he had some potential but due to a failed drug test he hasn't found in something like three years.
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby hawdrigoh » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:47 am

PainDog wrote:I don’t understand why there should be any assumptions that the elite 230lbs men cutting down to LHW would struggle with the 240lbs men at HW.


PainDog wrote:just a general assessment that the assumption that by default HWs are too big and/or too powerful for your average LHW isn't right.


Eh sorry but you’re all over the place. Is it the elite 230 lbs men cutting to LHW or the average LHW? What do you mean by “average”? Size? Skill? Ranking?

I don’t think anyone would argue things are true by default. All one can say is that there are many LHW’s (some very good) who would be at a disadvantage against some of the top HW’s because of a size discrepancy. Of course it’s not always true and it also depends on things like style match-ups. It’s not black and white. It’s also obvious that a 20 lbs difference has different significance depending on the weight classes being compared.

Anyways I’m going to step out and let you take over from here because there’s something you’re trying to say but need to find the right way of saying it. Just a suggestion that's hopefully helpful; when you give a long write-up you may want to give a summary at the beginning so the reader doesn’t have to try and figure out what you’re trying to say by reading the entire thing (like an abstract for a research paper…it might also help sort out exactly what you’re trying to say). Also, you may want to take a look at data analysis techniques and how to deal with outliers :beer:
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Re: Light Heavy Weight vs. Heavy Weight

Postby PainDog » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:29 am

hawdrigoh wrote:
PainDog wrote:I don’t understand why there should be any assumptions that the elite 230lbs men cutting down to LHW would struggle with the 240lbs men at HW.


PainDog wrote:just a general assessment that the assumption that by default HWs are too big and/or too powerful for your average LHW isn't right.


Eh sorry but you’re all over the place. Is it the elite 230 lbs men cutting to LHW or the average LHW? What do you mean by “average”? Size? Skill? Ranking?


Yeah, I get your point.

I was kind of rushed when writing out the original post, and didn't really convey the message I was trying to send very well. I had a few different ideas in my mind while writing it and they all get mixed up, and like you said the result was something all over the place.

I have seen many, of course not you, but many, who argue that a certain fighter like Jon Jones wouldn't do well at HW just due to a default size disadvantage.

So while I had elite LHWs like Jon Jones or Alexander Gustafsson in mind, I was really trying to make two general points.

One is that most of the more successful HWs aren't pushing the HW limit of 265lbs, and with that in mind the size difference between most successful HWs and most LHWs (in the UFac at least) isn't unusually large when compared to other weight classes.

I used former UFC HW champions as a sample for successful HWs and to calculate the HW average weight which I used throughout the post (though I should have used 244 instead of 240)
I used self reported weights of LHWs who are currently ranked in the UFC top ten, such as Glover, OSP, Shogun, etc. to get the average weight of around 230lbs for LHWs...

When I mentioned rankings, I was referring to the UFCs rankings.

Skill...its a hard one to define...because you would have to consider so many variables...

hawdrigoh wrote:I don’t think anyone would argue things are true by default. All one can say is that there are many LHW’s (some very good) who would be at a disadvantage against some of the top HW’s because of a size discrepancy. Of course it’s not always true and it also depends on things like style match-ups. It’s not black and white. It’s also obvious that a 20 lbs difference has different significance depending on the weight classes being compared.


I agree with you when you say "All one can say is that there are many LHW’s (some very good) who would be at a disadvantage against some of the top HW’s because of a size discrepancy. Of course it’s not always true and it also depends on things like style match-ups. It’s not black and white.".

But I do think many people make certain generalizations, and one of those is that HWs are too big and powerful by default for LHW sized fighters. I am not going to go dig up examples, but trust me those assertions have been made several times.


hawdrigoh wrote:Anyways I’m going to step out and let you take over from here because there’s something you’re trying to say but need to find the right way of saying it. Just a suggestion that's hopefully helpful; when you give a long write-up you may want to give a summary at the beginning so the reader doesn’t have to try and figure out what you’re trying to say by reading the entire thing (like an abstract for a research paper…it might also help sort out exactly what you’re trying to say). Also, you may want to take a look at data analysis techniques and how to deal with outliers :beer:


I agree that I should have made everything clearer, and I should have stated my premise right from the beginning...

I regret even mentioning Lesnar as an outlier...like I said he just stood out as far as being the only one cutting weight to reach 265...and admittedly I did miss Shane Carwin who also cut to 265.

I did keep referring to HWs as weighing 240, when to be fair I should have been saying 244, or even higher if I included Carwin, which probably would have raised to the average to around 245 as you mentioned in your first post.
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