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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby TFlock » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:17 am

KingOfPancrase wrote:
TFlock wrote:The USA needs a political revolution and take the guns away while you’re at it :biggrin:

What race/ethnicity are you Canadian? Genuinely curious. Btw I find it laughable you suggest confiscating guns.... You yourself absolutely won't be there at the forefront. You want men with guns to go take guns from people and do your bidding for you. Pathetic.

What does that matter? :lol: :lol: I’m as white as they come

I live in a country where I’m not scared of someone else having a gun therefore I don’t need or want a gun. A guy in your country just traveled all the way from Norway to surprise his father in law and he shot him because he was afraid so he grabbed his gun. This shit happens every day down there. 2 mass shootings yesterday too. It will never end. What’s your solution? Just keep shooting?

Look at this shit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... es_in_2019

It’s fucking ridiculous that you don’t think guns are a problem. The rest of the world laughs at it.

What does it mean I won’t be there at the forefront? Is there going to be some sort of need for men with guns in the near future?
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby Mr Meow » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:35 am

TFlock wrote:
KingOfPancrase wrote:
TFlock wrote:The USA needs a political revolution and take the guns away while you’re at it :biggrin:

What race/ethnicity are you Canadian? Genuinely curious. Btw I find it laughable you suggest confiscating guns.... You yourself absolutely won't be there at the forefront. You want men with guns to go take guns from people and do your bidding for you. Pathetic.

What does that matter? :lol: :lol: I’m as white as they come

I live in a country where I’m not scared of someone else having a gun therefore I don’t need or want a gun. A guy in your country just traveled all the way from Norway to surprise his father in law and he shot him because he was afraid so he grabbed his gun. This shit happens every day down there. 2 mass shootings yesterday too. It will never end. What’s your solution? Just keep shooting?

Look at this shit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... es_in_2019

It’s fucking ridiculous that you don’t think guns are a problem. The rest of the world laughs at it.

What does it mean I won’t be there at the forefront? Is there going to be some sort of need for men with guns in the near future?


No offense dude, but we have been down this road so often :lol:

Out of curiosity how do you factor in the FSU rape and resistance study into your opinion? Or the CDC report commissioned under Obama a few years ago? Or the fact that since the early 90s we have more guns and less gun violence? Is there a country you can point to that has less than 0.0017% of the population dying from non suicide/accidental gun related deaths per year? What percentage of deaths per year, not suicides or accidents, are gang related and as we all know gang members do not obey gun laws?

If you have not heard of any or half of those things but still talk down to Americans about gun laws then you haven't taken the rudimentary first steps to understand the situation.

It would be like If I got on here time after time and gave shit to you Canadians for going out of your way to make bestiality legal as long is it does not involve penetration :lol:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 73196.html

Do you think i should really look into this issue more, and the surrounding circumstances of it and potential mitigating factors, before I judge the entirety of Canada? Or should I just look at from a surface level only? I mean we here in the US do not fight tooth and nail to make it legal to suck off your farm animals :roll: What a primitive culture you must have!

Give me a heads up when you have read through the FSU rape and resistance report or the CDC report under Obama and we can then discuss how those factors should play into your thinking of gun control here in America. I would love to hear your opinion on it.

Also KOP's point about guns is interesting. If America is so wwwwwaaaaaaaaacist and the government (and police) are just killing black men indiscriminately, then why do you want A.) only the government to have guns and why is it cool in your mind for a group of men with guns to go around taking guns from civilians?
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby TFlock » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:14 am

Mr Meow wrote:
TFlock wrote:
KingOfPancrase wrote:
TFlock wrote:The USA needs a political revolution and take the guns away while you’re at it :biggrin:

What race/ethnicity are you Canadian? Genuinely curious. Btw I find it laughable you suggest confiscating guns.... You yourself absolutely won't be there at the forefront. You want men with guns to go take guns from people and do your bidding for you. Pathetic.

What does that matter? :lol: :lol: I’m as white as they come

I live in a country where I’m not scared of someone else having a gun therefore I don’t need or want a gun. A guy in your country just traveled all the way from Norway to surprise his father in law and he shot him because he was afraid so he grabbed his gun. This shit happens every day down there. 2 mass shootings yesterday too. It will never end. What’s your solution? Just keep shooting?

Look at this shit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... es_in_2019

It’s fucking ridiculous that you don’t think guns are a problem. The rest of the world laughs at it.

What does it mean I won’t be there at the forefront? Is there going to be some sort of need for men with guns in the near future?


No offense dude, but we have been down this road so often :lol:

Out of curiosity how do you factor in the FSU rape and resistance study into your opinion? im comparing the USA to the rest of the world with regards to gun deaths.

Or the CDC report commissioned under Obama a few years ago? Or the fact that since the early 90s we have more guns and less gun violence? compared to other countries the USA is still the highest gun death per capita by far

Is there a country you can point to that has less than 0.0017% of the population dying from non suicide/accidental gun related deaths per year? source? Still the highest gun death and ownership per capita in the world. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... aps-charts

What percentage of deaths per year, not suicides or accidents, are gang related and as we all know gang members do not obey gun laws?theres Almost 400 millions guns in the USA so it’s pretty easy for them to get them

If you have not heard of any or half of those things but still talk down to Americans about gun laws then you haven't taken the rudimentary first steps to understand the situation. i think when you’re the worst in the world for gun violence that your country can learn from other countries like Australia

It would be like If I got on here time after time and gave shit to you Canadians for going out of your way to make bestiality legal as long is it does not involve penetration :lol: nothing to do with gun deaths

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 73196.html

Do you think i should really look into this issue more, and the surrounding circumstances of it and potential mitigating factors, before I judge the entirety of Canada? Or should I just look at from a surface level only? I mean we here in the US do not fight tooth and nail to make it legal to suck off your farm animals :roll: What a primitive culture you must have! people don’t die from this that I’m aware of

Give me a heads up when you have read through the FSU rape and resistance report or the CDC report under Obama and we can then discuss how those factors should play into your thinking of gun control here in America. I would love to hear your opinion on it. if the USA had stricter gun ownership laws which I believe in do you think the gun violence rate would go up? Let’s say the gun ownership per capita was the same as Canada? More gun deaths?

Also KOP's point about guns is interesting. If America is so wwwwwaaaaaaaaacist and the government (and police) are just killing black men indiscriminately, then why do you want A.) only the government to have guns and why is it cool in your mind for a group of men with guns to go around taking guns from civilians?never said that nobody should have guns. shouldnt have been 400 million guns in circulation in the first place combined with the gun culture and you wouldn’t have this problem. Like I said, just look at other first world countries that don’t have this problem and see what they’re doing right
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby Mr Meow » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:34 pm

Responses to each of your responses

1.) comparing the US to other countries has nothing to do with the study I cited. I have yet to get a direct response from anyone who thinks our countries gun control sucks.

2. ) Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year = US is the tenth. Not the first. Not the first by far. That is just incorrect. We have 12.21 per 100,000 compared to Honduras and the 60.05+ they average per year.

Only 3.6 of these are gun homicides.

3.) 328 million people in the US or so. 0.00915% of the population dies from gun related actions each year.

A breakdown of those 30,000 deaths:

• 22,938 (76%) are by suicide which can't be prevented by gun laws

• 987 (3%) are by law enforcement, thus not relevant to Gun Control discussion.

• 489 (2%) are accidental

So 5,577... 0.0017% of the population.

4.) Outlawing guns makes them no harder for a gang member to buy. Just like making pot illegal did not make it more difficult for a stonner in high school to buy. Chicago has incredibly stiff gun control laws and yet gang members get their hands on them easily.

5.) Australia gun back program showed 0 effectiveness. They "bought back" only a third of the guns total. The mass shootings per year and per decade was not changed (they had almost none before and have had only a few since) gun deaths did not change. Violent crime in general stayed the same. Australia gun back after the port arthur massacre is something gun control people stay away from when making an argument as it actually adds to the other side.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/10/ ... a-america/

6.) My point with the next few points had nothing to do with people dying from it (some do) it was simply outlining a ridiculous law that Americans could give Canada shit about over and over again if we wanted, yet we don't because we do not have the rudimentary understanding of the laws over there to speak on it.

7.) same as 6

8.) and 9.) A simple "oh yes I have not read the two studies that you have said I should and will return when I have so I can have a more indepth understanding of pro gun arguments that are rooted in scientific analysis form studies, as opposed to just saying other countries do better therefore be like them." would have totally worked for this. Which would be fair. In debates or exchanges of ideas I hear about things I have never read or heard about all the time. There is nothing wrong with saying i will check on it and get back to you.


What type of stricter gun control laws are you talking about? I can give my opinion on them in specific.

To answer your question about gun ownership per capita in the US compared to Canada I will say that in 1993 we had 7 gun homicides per 100,000, we have 3.6 now. In 1993 we had 0.94 guns per person and now we have 1.49 guns per person

So how can gun ownership go up and overall gun homicides go down at the same time?


Be honest, are you just not going to read the studies which counteract your view on this I have brought up? If so I can just summarize them for you. I just think its kinda crazy to be judgmental about an entire country and its population on an issue without ever hearing the most basic of counter points to your view.
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby TFlock » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:48 pm

Mr Meow wrote:Responses to each of your responses

1.) comparing the US to other countries has nothing to do with the study I cited. I have yet to get a direct response from anyone who thinks our countries gun control sucks.

what study? My point is that the USA has a gun problem and can learn from other countries policies that don’t have a gun problem. Is it relevant to that?

2. ) Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year = US is the tenth. Not the first. Not the first by far. That is just incorrect. We have 12.21 per 100,000 compared to Honduras and the 60.05+ they average per year.

Only 3.6 of these are gun homicides.

im talking first world countries. I forgot to mention that in every sentence but that was the point.

3.) 328 million people in the US or so. 0.00915% of the population dies from gun related actions each year.

A breakdown of those 30,000 deaths:

• 22,938 (76%) are by suicide which can't be prevented by gun laws

that is an opinion and my opinion is that suicides would be lower because in many cases they’d have more time to seek help if they didn’t have a gun available if they’re feeling depressed

• 987 (3%) are by law enforcement, thus not relevant to Gun Control discussion.

my opinion would be that they are relevant to gun control because the cops are probably killing people with guns who shouldn’t have guns

• 489 (2%) are accidental

this number would be reduced if there were less guns in circulation

So 5,577... 0.0017% of the population.

4.) Outlawing guns makes them no harder for a gang member to buy. Just like making pot illegal did not make it more difficult for a stonner in high school to buy. Chicago has incredibly stiff gun control laws and yet gang members get their hands on them easily.

its too late because of the guns per capita. 400 million guns is a lot and it’s easy to get one now. They’re probably smuggled in from outside the city

5.) Australia gun back program showed 0 effectiveness. They "bought back" only a third of the guns total. The mass shootings per year and per decade was not changed (they had almost none before and have had only a few since) gun deaths did not change. Violent crime in general stayed the same. Australia gun back after the port arthur massacre is something gun control people stay away from when making an argument as it actually adds to the other side.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/10/ ... a-america/

if they would have gone the other route and let everyone stock pile guns out of fear of each other or the urge to protect themselves I would be pretty confident that the gun deaths would have gone up significantly. There are many articles and sources that argue the other way so it goes both ways

6.) My point with the next few points had nothing to do with people dying from it (some do) it was simply outlining a ridiculous law that Americans could give Canada shit about over and over again if we wanted, yet we don't because we do not have the rudimentary understanding of the laws over there to speak on it.

7.) same as 6

8.) and 9.) A simple "oh yes I have not read the two studies that you have said I should and will return when I have so I can have a more indepth understanding of pro gun arguments that are rooted in scientific analysis form studies, as opposed to just saying other countries do better therefore be like them." would have totally worked for this. Which would be fair. In debates or exchanges of ideas I hear about things I have never read or heard about all the time. There is nothing wrong with saying i will check on it and get back to you.

What type of stricter gun control laws are you talking about? I can give my opinion on them in specific.

its too late because there won’t be a confiscation of guns in the USA

To answer your question about gun ownership per capita in the US compared to Canada I will say that in 1993 we had 7 gun homicides per 100,000, we have 3.6 now. In 1993 we had 0.94 guns per person and now we have 1.49 guns per person

So how can gun ownership go up and overall gun homicides go down at the same time?

i don’t know but I’d assume it has to do with many socioeconomic factors


Be honest, are you just not going to read the studies which counteract your view on this I have brought up? If so I can just summarize them for you. I just think its kinda crazy to be judgmental about an entire country and its population on an issue without ever hearing the most basic of counter points to your view.

in my opinion the USA has the highest gun death per capita in first world countries due to many reasons.

- Fear of each other that dates back to your civil wars. This created a culture that gun ownership was a need due to everyone else having a gun and the fear of another war (we don’t have this in Canada)
- nra lobbying
- video games
- pro gun movies and tv shows
- people with mental illness have easy access to guns
- 400 million guns in circulation therefore it’s easy to get one
- love of guns
- many other reasons

Why is the UK gun death rate so low? Japan? Many others. I’d assume every country with a low gun ownership per capita also has a low gun death per capita.

I don’t mean to offend any Americans but it is just sad to see all of the mass shootings and stories of innocent people dying from careless gun use or being murdered by people that shouldn’t have guns. I’m not an expert on this but when I live 30 minutes from the border and I see the huge differences in gun culture between the 2 countries I have to have an opinion

We can agree to disagree because there are many theories on both sides of it but to me more guns equals more gun deaths (it will fluctuate as it has)

We’re still cool :wink:
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby Mr Meow » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:22 am

Mr Tflock sir. We can agree to disagree a lot on this! We have vastly different gun views and that is no big deal. That's the good thing about a discussion between linker brothern, we disagree but never make it a huge deal or make it personal, we get that we both want less gun deaths obviously we just disagree on the means to get there :tup:


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now why don't you go fuck yourself? :tup: :tup: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



Out of curiosity sir. Just to get your noggin joggin and my noggin joggin. What would your response be to the fact between there are 500,000 and 2 million examples of defensive gun use per year in the USA compared to the 5,000 or so gun related homicides/murders/manslaughters/etc?

Also rape/resistance is a big issue here in regards to gun control. What is your response to the following data?

when a potential rape victim used a gun to ward off a rapist the rapist was successful only .09% of the time and the victim was injured 0% of the time out of a study which looked at 2,056 cases of potential rape which met these circumstances

when a potential rape victim used a knife to fight off a rapist the rapist was successful 0% of the time but the victim was injured in the process 69.4% of the time out of 4,033 cases of potential rape

when a potential rape victim used a other weapon, not gun or knife, to fight off a potential rapist the rapist was successful 9.9% of the time with victim being injured 58.9% of the time out of 14,257 cases of potential rape

when a potential rape victim used weaponless physical force to fight off a potential rapist the rapist was successful 29.3% of the time with the victim being injured 56.9% of time out of 166,441 cases of circumstances meeting this criteria.

when a potential rape victim tried to get help or frighten the offender the offender was successful in rape 28.6% of the time with the victim being physically injured 50.5% of the time in 161,606 cases which fit these circumstances.


So basically way more instances of people using guns to defend themselves/their families than there are people getting murdered by guns in the US.

Also taking away the means for a women to defend herself against a rapist with a failure rate of only .09% and almost no chance of injury (0 women who used a gun were injured in over 2,000 cases) is a pretty crazy notion. Especially when the second best alternative is using a knife and having nearly a 70% chance of getting injured when defending yourself.
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby TFlock » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:35 am

sorry bud, I was on vacation and just got back. here's some thoughts.

Mr Meow wrote:Mr Tflock sir. We can agree to disagree a lot on this! We have vastly different gun views and that is no big deal. That's the good thing about a discussion between linker brothern, we disagree but never make it a huge deal or make it personal, we get that we both want less gun deaths obviously we just disagree on the means to get there :tup:


Spoiler:
now why don't you go fuck yourself? :tup: :tup: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



Out of curiosity sir. Just to get your noggin joggin and my noggin joggin. What would your response be to the fact between there are 500,000 and 2 million examples of defensive gun use per year in the USA compared to the 5,000 or so gun related homicides/murders/manslaughters/etc?

I wanted to look into this as it seemed extremely unrealistic to me so I did and found many differing numbers. read this and you'll see how high and low the estimates are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use

here's an example from the link I just cited of how crazy the Kleck and Gertz study sounds.

A study published in 2013 by the Violence Policy Center, using five years of nationwide statistics (2007-2011) compiled by the Federal Bureau of Investigation found that defensive gun uses occur an average of 67,740 times per year.[35]

A 2004 study surveyed the records of a Phoenix, Arizona newspaper, as well as police and court records, and found a total of 3 instances of defensive gun use over a 3.5 month period. In contrast, Kleck and Gertz's study would predict that the police should have noticed more than 98 DGU killings or woundings and 236 DGU firings at adversaries during this time.[36]

A 1995 study led by Arthur Kellermann, which examined 198 home invasion crimes in Atlanta, Georgia, found that in only 3 of these cases did victims use guns for self-protection. Of these three, none were injured, but one lost property. The authors concluded that "Although firearms are often kept in the home for protection, they are rarely used for this purpose."[37]

A follow-up study in 1998 by Arthur Kellermann analyzed 626 shootings in three cities. The study found that "For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides."[38] - that one is very troubling and very different from the study you referred.

The Gun Violence Archive, which uses a methodology of counting incidents reported and verified by law enforcement or media, reports substantially lower numbers of defensive gun use in the US than studies based on polls. 1,980 and 2,043 incidents were reported and verified in 2016 and 2017, respectively.[39]


Also rape/resistance is a big issue here in regards to gun control. What is your response to the following data?

when a potential rape victim used a gun to ward off a rapist the rapist was successful only .09% of the time and the victim was injured 0% of the time out of a study which looked at 2,056 cases of potential rape which met these circumstances

when a potential rape victim used a knife to fight off a rapist the rapist was successful 0% of the time but the victim was injured in the process 69.4% of the time out of 4,033 cases of potential rape

when a potential rape victim used a other weapon, not gun or knife, to fight off a potential rapist the rapist was successful 9.9% of the time with victim being injured 58.9% of the time out of 14,257 cases of potential rape

when a potential rape victim used weaponless physical force to fight off a potential rapist the rapist was successful 29.3% of the time with the victim being injured 56.9% of time out of 166,441 cases of circumstances meeting this criteria.

when a potential rape victim tried to get help or frighten the offender the offender was successful in rape 28.6% of the time with the victim being physically injured 50.5% of the time in 161,606 cases which fit these circumstances.

holy fuck, thats a lot of rape attempts if its true. having a gun would definitely help the victim prevent the rape. I won't argue that.

So basically way more instances of people using guns to defend themselves/their families than there are people getting murdered by guns in the US.

im not sure if I believe that after seeing how biased some articles can be on each side of the argument. no idea where the truth stands.

Also taking away the means for a women to defend herself against a rapist with a failure rate of only .09% and almost no chance of injury (0 women who used a gun were injured in over 2,000 cases) is a pretty crazy notion. Especially when the second best alternative is using a knife and having nearly a 70% chance of getting injured when defending yourself.


I guess my main takeaway would be that if there were significantly less guns in circulation then the criminals wouldn't be able to get them so easily and therefore there would be less gun crime and less need for self protection. just like supply and demand. if the supply of guns was low then the demand would be high and the price would be high and not all criminals would be able to access one. anyways, its tough when theres so many different articles on both sides of the spectrum.
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby Mr Meow » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:32 am

I am getting my numbers from the CDC report from 2013 for the defensive gun use topic.

https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#13


https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/ ... 893253299a
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby DeceptaCon » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:42 pm


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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby bruins2012 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:23 am

America NEEDS the war industry to maintain the illusion that endless economic growth is possible.

When profits are low, the ruling elite invent an enemy so they can sell more weapons.



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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby PBells » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:54 am

bruins2012 wrote:America NEEDS the war industry to maintain the illusion that endless economic growth is possible.

When profits are low, the ruling elite invent an enemy so they can sell more weapons.



:P


B-b-but Trump is an isolationist! He won't be starting shit with other countries! It's not like he ever said "I LIKE WAR" during the campaign!
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby TFlock » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:58 am

PBells wrote:
bruins2012 wrote:America NEEDS the war industry to maintain the illusion that endless economic growth is possible.

When profits are low, the ruling elite invent an enemy so they can sell more weapons.



:P


B-b-but Trump is an isolationist! He won't be starting shit with other countries! It's not like he ever said "I LIKE WAR" during the campaign!

All tied to this warning

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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby DeceptaCon » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:57 pm

TFlock wrote:
PBells wrote:
bruins2012 wrote:America NEEDS the war industry to maintain the illusion that endless economic growth is possible.

When profits are low, the ruling elite invent an enemy so they can sell more weapons.



:P


B-b-but Trump is an isolationist! He won't be starting shit with other countries! It's not like he ever said "I LIKE WAR" during the campaign!

All tied to this warning



Although these parasites are not human, they are able to covertly influence our thoughts so we will do harm to oursevles and or others. In this way, they feed off the energy generated from the negative emotions of humans such as pain, fear, anger, revenge, etc.

It is unclear when these cosmic amoeba-like creatures and their reptilian counterparts first came to earth, but we know they were discovered by shamans in altered states of consciousness long ago and have recently been photographed and caught on video.

Image

It shows a sleeping child being tormented by an Archon. This synthetic entity is feeding off the negative energy emitted by the child's DNA as it is being emotionally disturbed. The Archon is invisible to the average human eye; however, the night-vision filter on the baby monitor recorded the entity's energy signature.

The day after I reported the above video on my radio show, I received the following from a friend living near my home town of Malibu, which is where I first became aware of these parasitic, paranormal entities in 1985. My friend and I were both born in 1959. He wrote:

They are layers to this shit and the politician is the 1st layer


http://www.unicusmagazine.com/skyfish.htm
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby bruins2012 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:40 am

TFlock wrote:
PBells wrote:
bruins2012 wrote:America NEEDS the war industry to maintain the illusion that endless economic growth is possible.

When profits are low, the ruling elite invent an enemy so they can sell more weapons.



:P


B-b-but Trump is an isolationist! He won't be starting shit with other countries! It's not like he ever said "I LIKE WAR" during the campaign!

All tied to this warning





^^This^^

How dumb do you have to be to not understand that simple point by now.

:P
When engaged in combat, the vanquishing of thine enemy can be the warrior's only concern. Suppress all human emotion and compassion. Kill whoever stands in thy way, even if that be Lord God or Buddha himself.

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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby bwawm » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:04 pm

What?? Like the gun control debate isn't complex enough without attaching random unrelated shit to it? What does rape prevention have to do with gun control?

Those are completely different issues....you don't reduce rape rates with guns lol :shock:

This may be a shocker, but if you look up rape statistics by country-you won't see all the countries with the guns in the 0-1% category...in fact, some of the least rapey countries have gun control laws as well :shock:

Sweden: a lot of guns, not so much gun crime aaaaaand top 5 rapiest country in the world.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countr ... y-country/

Wait, if you're people rape less you don't HAVE to defend yourself? What?????

This is where we are in the US with guns. No one knows what is up or down on either side of the debate.


I'm not trying to take guns from anybody (or give up mine) but jesus fucking christ the insanity of the people participating in the argument is mind boggling.

Sophists everywhere.
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