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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby Mr Meow » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:58 am

philphan wrote:Image
Is Trump the dumbest president we have ever had?



In terms of IQ i say he for sure is top 10 purrrrhaps top 5 :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby Mr Meow » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:19 am

willmma wrote:
Mr Meow wrote:
willmma wrote:

That is not international law. This is as valid as a Chinese court freezing and confiscating US assets because the US bombed Iraq for no reason.
Holds no water internationally. It only works here because the US is a super power and Iran is a third world nation that cant really do anything about it.

Mr Meow wrote:I have limited sympathy for the plight of the Iranian government and its continued sponsorship of terrorism on a state level. A great way for them to avoid assets being taken would be to stop sponsoring terrorist groups throughout the world, seems like a no brainer to me.


Sponsoring terrorism has nothing to do with it. The US aids and abets terror groups all over the place, MeK, Nusra, even ISIS. US aids illegal Israel occupation of the Palestinians and Saudi bombings of Yemeni schools, hospitals and markets.

Iran has been under military attack or financial sanctions since the 1979 revolution. Those monies were frozen in 1979. Basically when the people revolted and overthrew the dictator imposed on them by the US. Before they had a chance to sponsor any terrorist groups.

This is just a matter of non compliance with US will.

Mr Meow wrote:
They told us they were moderating, that was a lie. They told us they stopped sponsoring terrorist groups, that was a lie, they said they had nothing to do with the Beirut bombings which killed over 250 Americans, that was a lie. So they got some money frozen so they could not use it to finance terrorism.



I never understood this example of 250 Americans killed in Beirut being characterized as a terror attack. Under what definition would a domestic group attacking an unwanted, belligerent, foreign military force be considered a terrorist attack?

I don't know if Iran helped in that attack. I haven't seen any evidence either way. But I do know that they aid Hezbollah which perpetrated the attack. Iran may or may not have known about the specific attack.

On the other hand the US shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655 killing 290 civilians can more likely be described as a terrorist attack. Where civilians were targeted in a non combat zone.

Mr Meow wrote:
Again limited sympathy for their plight from me.


Your limited sympathy is understood. Not too many people like Iran. But your sympathy is irrelevant.


woof


I am not sure I understand your first point...If the US sponsored terrorist groups that attacked Iran that would be one thing, but we don't. I do not see a connection between this situation and if China froze our assets for bombing Iraq.


I am 100% against US bombings on Yemen, Somalia, etc, all the countries Obama started to bomb the fuck out of based on shitty intelligence. Trust me I am against that. However lets not get into the Israel Palestine occupation thing, that will just get us off track really fast :lol: I think we have opposing viewpoints on that for sure.

I think you comparing Iran as a state funding terrorism to the USA funding terrorists is pretty disingenuous. the whole US started and funds ISIS still is a pretty big conspiracy theory but if you can provide me some concrete evidence that the US government knowingly funded a terrorist group, when it was a terrorist group, knowing it was a terrorist group, and still funding this terrorist group I am open to hear it. I certainly do not think the US is above making shitty decisions like this. I have seen us do worse before but to my knowledge the last time we openly funded a terrorist group which we knew was a terrorist group was back in the late 90s in Kosovo under Mr Lolitta express Clinton himself

the Beirut Barack attacks were for sure a terrorist attack. It fits all the criteria needed for an attack to be considered a terrorist attack. I am not the biggest fan of our presence over there either, but that does not give civilians the right to drive a truck into the compound and blow it up. Timmy Mcveigh was an asshole, more so he viewed the US government as an "unwanted, belligerent military force" such as you described yet his bombing in 1995 was still a terrorist attack. The US having a military base in Beirut does not justify that bombing. All sorts of terrorist attacks have been against unwanted military forces but that does not make them any less of terrorist attacks, from the IRA to Algeria and everything in between.

Iran Air Flight655 was an absolute tragedy. It was a gigantic fuck up. However all the investigations done by both the US government and outside sources have all pointed to it just being an accident. it was a huge fuck up of intelligence and it cost a lot of people their lives. It is very sad but there is literally 0 evidence that the US intentionally shot down the plane knowing it was civilian in nature.



Thanks for the response. I enjoy these chats.

The problem with these discussions is that they spawn into several topics. So, agreed to stay off the Israel topic, cuz you're right, that will derail things the fastest and most.

And I also want to refocus the discussions to my original contention of you saying that the US took/froze Iranian assets "rightly" because Iran sponsors terrorism. This spawned into three topics so far: US Sponsoring Terror, Beirut Barracks attack and Iran Air Flight 655.

I'll start with the definition of terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. I'm happy with that definition, three criteria: Violence against civilians to intimidate. <- the perpetrator is irrelevant.

I'll start with 655. If Iran shot down a civilian airline then I'm sure the US would launch a war against Iran. If Iran conducted an investigation and found itself innocent of any ill-will and that the whole thing is an accident, would you accept it? Motivations aside the plain facts are that US armed forces shot a missile at a civilian airliner and killed 290 people. These facts are not in dispute. whether it was an accident or not is not really a fact and very much in dispute. Just like when the US bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, but that's another story. Shooting down the civilian plane meets two of the criteria. There may or may not be intimidation. If you believe there is then it's terror. If not then not.

Beirut Barracks was an attack on a non-civilian target. case closed. not terror.

So, Air 655 can be described as terror depending your understanding of intention. Beirut Barracks is not terror.

Now even if you want to consider it terror, there is no proof Iran had anything to do with it or even planned it. And even if it is terror and Iran had a hand in it, it happened three years after sanctions were imposed. So sanctions had nothing to do with sponsoring terrorism

Ok, on US sponsoring terror.

How America Armed Terrorists in Syria

U.S. Support for Al Qaeda-Linked Rebels Undermines Syrian Ceasefire

‘Americans Are On Our Side’: Al-Nusra Commander Says US Arming Jihadists Via Third Countries

2012 US weapons to jihani rebels by accident https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/worl ... hands.html
2013 Airlift of weapons to rebels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... agreb.html
2014 Congress approves arming "moderate" rebels https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... S320140127
2014 U.S. Weapons Fall Into the Hands of Terrorists https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... ts/383095/
2015 US gives weapons to rebels by accident. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33997408
2016 US gives weapons to ISIS by accident. https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/29/th ... ia-rebels/
2017 US weapsons to ISIS https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-w ... 1943415862


When the Syrian army clashed with ISIS in 2016, the US bombed the Syrian army. Helped ISIS take over a critical position, I think it was an airport. 37 airstrikes killed over 100 Syrians. By accident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September ... r_air_raid

I believe the US fought ISIS in Iraq but helped them fight Assad in Syria.


Here is general Wesley Clarke telling us that the US friends and allies supports zealots in Syria who are willing to fight Hezbollah



----

With all that said. Back to topic.
The US did not freeze Iran assets because Iran perpetrated terror attacks against the US. Because none happened.

But if you want to say that the US froze Iran assets because it sponsors terror elsewhere (timelines dont work but anyways...) then it is fair to say this is as wrong as China freezing US assets because of sponsoring terror.

Ultimately there is no international law that says the US has the "right" to take Iranian money.

Other facts
As a member of NPT Iran has the right to acquire and build civilian nuclear facilities
Iran gave up 98% of its uranium
Iran accepted the most stringent inspections ever, way above and beyond NPT requirements
In return to unfreeze their money and continue to run their civilian nuclear program
Iran abided by the deal

The only party not to honor its word is the United States of America.


I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Trust me I despise our meddling in Middle Eastern affairs, especially countries like somalia, Yemen, Syria, etc that 92/100 Americans could not even pick out on a map nor know why we are there. I think its all a gigantic waste of money and time, arming certain rebels today will only lead us to arm the rebels who are fighting against them in a few years. Its cyclic and dumb.

A point I will say though is that in modern times countries which have had nuclear bombs and then been disarmed, like South Africa in the early 90s, did so on their own volition. They were influenced too but nobody straight up paid them to disarm. I do not see why we need to pay Iran to modernize themselves and give up their nukes. The frozen assets were 100% Iran's fault in my opinion, nobody make them take hostages and nobody forces them to continue to sponsor terror. Other countries did not need to be bribed with money to give up their nukes and paying Iran to do so set a horrible precedent in my view.

If Iran shot down a American civilian plane I would be pissed but I would not instantly think it was a terrorist attack. I do not think the American military planned to shoot down this plane and carried out this plan knowing it was a civilian airliner. I just have not seen that evidence. Now would America launch a war against Iran if they did it? Even by accident? Yeah probably so. America has been all about wars for awhile now unfortunately and that is something I personally disagree with.

I just do not think a tragic accident = a terrorist attack in this specific example. America is at fault for it for sure but I do not think it was a terrorist attack. I am totally 100% capable of changing my stance on this as I am darn sure no apologist for our shitty government. I will look more into that I have lately and if I find pretty clear intent than I would have no issues calling this a terrorist attack or a state sponsored terrorist attack.



The Beirut attacks I have only seen classified as a terrorist attack. I see your point that it was mostly against military but from what I have read the fact there were numerous UN peacekeepers as well as several French and US citizens classifies it as a terrorist attack. I am not sure how I personally would classify it but every source darn near I am finding has it labeled as a terrorist attack.


Fucking eh though I will need to read through these links that you have sent. I remember reading a lot of stories on our weapon arming of rebels in Syria but at the time it was more of a "well there is a bunch of smoke but no fire" type deal. I will for sure look into these stories you posted for awhile. I am not honestly too shocked though. We have a history of arming rebels who we then need to arm different rebels to kill them when they get in power. It is dumb yet predictable of us.

I hate Bush like most people do, but under his regime it was only like 3 or 4 million dollars worth of guns being exported overseas and under Obama it was somewhere over 100 million. Most of that went to the middle east. Almost all of it actually.

The US needs to stay the fuck out of Syria and Yemen and places like that and get our shit together. Waste of time and money

anyways mr sir thank you for the links you provided. You have given me a lot to bite into! In a good way though. I enjoy reading about and researching these types of things.
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby Mr Meow » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:39 pm

Have read a few of these sources so far. Some of them are very legit. Some stories are highlighting when arms unintentionally go to terrorist groups though. Some of these articles state specifically the arms end up in the hands of ISIS but were not originally intended to go there

However the articles talking about the Obama administration arming the Al-Nusra are by in no way shape or form unintentional. They knew damn well what they were doing and did so on purpose. So yeah in terms of the US backing terrorists I would say the Al-Nusra under Obomba are unfortunately a great example of this :-(

Fucking eh our government is horrible with middle eastern affairs

Will continue to read more of these links. Thanks again mr sir!
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby DeceptaCon » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:28 pm

Mr Meow wrote:Have read a few of these sources so far. Some of them are very legit. Some stories are highlighting when arms unintentionally go to terrorist groups though. Some of these articles state specifically the arms end up in the hands of ISIS but were not originally intended to go there

However the articles talking about the Obama administration arming the Al-Nusra are by in no way shape or form unintentional. They knew damn well what they were doing and did so on purpose. So yeah in terms of the US backing terrorists I would say the Al-Nusra under Obomba are unfortunately a great example of this :-(

Fucking eh our government is horrible with middle eastern affairs

Will continue to read more of these links. Thanks again mr sir!

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We fought along side the Taliban with Rambo against the Russians
We create the chaos then we swoop in offer the solution
We are the ones that do the knocking.

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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby PBells » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:05 pm

“[Democrats] will undo everything we’ve done quickly, and violently, and violently! There will be violence.”

Seems ol’ Trumpy forgets he can veto. :lol:
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby PBells » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:07 pm

CNN: "BREAKING: TRUMP AXES FEDERAL EMPLOYEES' ANNUAL RAISE"

NPR: "President Trump suggests cancelling annual raise for federal employees, though Congress has the final say."

Hmmmmmmm!
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby DeceptaCon » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:11 pm

PBells wrote:CNN: "BREAKING: TRUMP AXES FEDERAL EMPLOYEES' ANNUAL RAISE"

NPR: "President Trump suggests cancelling annual raise for federal employees, though Congress has the final say."

Hmmmmmmm!

Congress will get their raise no matter what, that's a fact Jack! Trump put them in a fine place, the ball is in their court now.
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby PBells » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:21 pm

It'll probably be tacked on to a bill increasing the congressional escort budget and will pass through without issue
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby DeceptaCon » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:09 pm

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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby Mr Meow » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:56 pm

DeceptaCon wrote:




Rosie O Donnell gets more and more shrill and stupid as the years go on.
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby EvilGorilla69+1 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:19 am

Mr Meow wrote:anyways mr sir thank you for the links you provided. You have given me a lot to bite into! In a good way though. I enjoy reading about and researching these types of things.



I am very happy with this shit. I was sad when I realized that Mr Meow had been fed lies by CNN and what not... It actually saddened me, that I erased it from my memory.

I am glad that you have the ability to change your mind when u are provided with new info.


War Peace.
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby Mr Meow » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:23 am

EvilGorilla69+1 wrote:
Mr Meow wrote:anyways mr sir thank you for the links you provided. You have given me a lot to bite into! In a good way though. I enjoy reading about and researching these types of things.



I am very happy with this shit. I was sad when I realized that Mr Meow had been fed lies by CNN and what not... It actually saddened me, that I erased it from my memory.

I am glad that you have the ability to change your mind when u are provided with new info.


War Peace.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

War Peace! LOL

Yeah my stances on pretty much everything, politics especially, are very much able to be abandoned or tweaked according to new information. Obomba for sure financed a AL-Qaeda offshoot in Syria. It is a shitty reality but a reality which is real

We need ol Hoffy in office at this point. Phillip Seymour or Melvin. Either way
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby PBells » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:11 am

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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby blackmetalcarson » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:58 pm

So when are we going to start putting anyone who isn't a white straight male into death camps? Also when is gay marriage getting repealed? The Don's been President for some time and a bunch of shit the liberals said he would do has not happened.
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Re: The Official Political Thread.

Postby bruins2012 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:36 am

MurderfaceMMA wrote:Trump did it! North Korea has agreed to end their nuclear program, and this isnt some pussy deal where they promise to end it, we lift the sanctions, then they go right back to it. No, this deal involves complete transparency. Journalists and experts from around the world have been invited to watch them dismantle and destroy their entire testing facility. This goes down in 2 weeks.


C’mon Murder! You can stop hiding and feeling so much shame!! Did you see the news today?!?


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This is going to be fun.



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