Is Trump the dumbest president we have ever had?
willmma wrote:Mr Meow wrote:willmma wrote:
That is not international law. This is as valid as a Chinese court freezing and confiscating US assets because the US bombed Iraq for no reason.
Holds no water internationally. It only works here because the US is a super power and Iran is a third world nation that cant really do anything about it.Mr Meow wrote:I have limited sympathy for the plight of the Iranian government and its continued sponsorship of terrorism on a state level. A great way for them to avoid assets being taken would be to stop sponsoring terrorist groups throughout the world, seems like a no brainer to me.
Sponsoring terrorism has nothing to do with it. The US aids and abets terror groups all over the place, MeK, Nusra, even ISIS. US aids illegal Israel occupation of the Palestinians and Saudi bombings of Yemeni schools, hospitals and markets.
Iran has been under military attack or financial sanctions since the 1979 revolution. Those monies were frozen in 1979. Basically when the people revolted and overthrew the dictator imposed on them by the US. Before they had a chance to sponsor any terrorist groups.
This is just a matter of non compliance with US will.Mr Meow wrote:
They told us they were moderating, that was a lie. They told us they stopped sponsoring terrorist groups, that was a lie, they said they had nothing to do with the Beirut bombings which killed over 250 Americans, that was a lie. So they got some money frozen so they could not use it to finance terrorism.
I never understood this example of 250 Americans killed in Beirut being characterized as a terror attack. Under what definition would a domestic group attacking an unwanted, belligerent, foreign military force be considered a terrorist attack?
I don't know if Iran helped in that attack. I haven't seen any evidence either way. But I do know that they aid Hezbollah which perpetrated the attack. Iran may or may not have known about the specific attack.
On the other hand the US shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655 killing 290 civilians can more likely be described as a terrorist attack. Where civilians were targeted in a non combat zone.Mr Meow wrote:
Again limited sympathy for their plight from me.
Your limited sympathy is understood. Not too many people like Iran. But your sympathy is irrelevant.
I am not sure I understand your first point...If the US sponsored terrorist groups that attacked Iran that would be one thing, but we don't. I do not see a connection between this situation and if China froze our assets for bombing Iraq.
I am 100% against US bombings on Yemen, Somalia, etc, all the countries Obama started to bomb the fuck out of based on shitty intelligence. Trust me I am against that. However lets not get into the Israel Palestine occupation thing, that will just get us off track really fast I think we have opposing viewpoints on that for sure.
I think you comparing Iran as a state funding terrorism to the USA funding terrorists is pretty disingenuous. the whole US started and funds ISIS still is a pretty big conspiracy theory but if you can provide me some concrete evidence that the US government knowingly funded a terrorist group, when it was a terrorist group, knowing it was a terrorist group, and still funding this terrorist group I am open to hear it. I certainly do not think the US is above making shitty decisions like this. I have seen us do worse before but to my knowledge the last time we openly funded a terrorist group which we knew was a terrorist group was back in the late 90s in Kosovo under Mr Lolitta express Clinton himself
the Beirut Barack attacks were for sure a terrorist attack. It fits all the criteria needed for an attack to be considered a terrorist attack. I am not the biggest fan of our presence over there either, but that does not give civilians the right to drive a truck into the compound and blow it up. Timmy Mcveigh was an asshole, more so he viewed the US government as an "unwanted, belligerent military force" such as you described yet his bombing in 1995 was still a terrorist attack. The US having a military base in Beirut does not justify that bombing. All sorts of terrorist attacks have been against unwanted military forces but that does not make them any less of terrorist attacks, from the IRA to Algeria and everything in between.
Iran Air Flight655 was an absolute tragedy. It was a gigantic fuck up. However all the investigations done by both the US government and outside sources have all pointed to it just being an accident. it was a huge fuck up of intelligence and it cost a lot of people their lives. It is very sad but there is literally 0 evidence that the US intentionally shot down the plane knowing it was civilian in nature.
Thanks for the response. I enjoy these chats.
The problem with these discussions is that they spawn into several topics. So, agreed to stay off the Israel topic, cuz you're right, that will derail things the fastest and most.
And I also want to refocus the discussions to my original contention of you saying that the US took/froze Iranian assets "rightly" because Iran sponsors terrorism. This spawned into three topics so far: US Sponsoring Terror, Beirut Barracks attack and Iran Air Flight 655.
I'll start with the definition of terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. I'm happy with that definition, three criteria: Violence against civilians to intimidate. <- the perpetrator is irrelevant.
I'll start with 655. If Iran shot down a civilian airline then I'm sure the US would launch a war against Iran. If Iran conducted an investigation and found itself innocent of any ill-will and that the whole thing is an accident, would you accept it? Motivations aside the plain facts are that US armed forces shot a missile at a civilian airliner and killed 290 people. These facts are not in dispute. whether it was an accident or not is not really a fact and very much in dispute. Just like when the US bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, but that's another story. Shooting down the civilian plane meets two of the criteria. There may or may not be intimidation. If you believe there is then it's terror. If not then not.
Beirut Barracks was an attack on a non-civilian target. case closed. not terror.
So, Air 655 can be described as terror depending your understanding of intention. Beirut Barracks is not terror.
Now even if you want to consider it terror, there is no proof Iran had anything to do with it or even planned it. And even if it is terror and Iran had a hand in it, it happened three years after sanctions were imposed. So sanctions had nothing to do with sponsoring terrorism
Ok, on US sponsoring terror.
How America Armed Terrorists in Syria
U.S. Support for Al Qaeda-Linked Rebels Undermines Syrian Ceasefire
‘Americans Are On Our Side’: Al-Nusra Commander Says US Arming Jihadists Via Third Countries
2012 US weapons to jihani rebels by accident https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/worl ... hands.html
2013 Airlift of weapons to rebels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... agreb.html
2014 Congress approves arming "moderate" rebels https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... S320140127
2014 U.S. Weapons Fall Into the Hands of Terrorists https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... ts/383095/
2015 US gives weapons to rebels by accident. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33997408
2016 US gives weapons to ISIS by accident. https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/29/th ... ia-rebels/
2017 US weapsons to ISIS https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-w ... 1943415862
When the Syrian army clashed with ISIS in 2016, the US bombed the Syrian army. Helped ISIS take over a critical position, I think it was an airport. 37 airstrikes killed over 100 Syrians. By accident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September ... r_air_raid
I believe the US fought ISIS in Iraq but helped them fight Assad in Syria.
Here is general Wesley Clarke telling us that the US friends and allies supports zealots in Syria who are willing to fight Hezbollah
With all that said. Back to topic.
The US did not freeze Iran assets because Iran perpetrated terror attacks against the US. Because none happened.
But if you want to say that the US froze Iran assets because it sponsors terror elsewhere (timelines dont work but anyways...) then it is fair to say this is as wrong as China freezing US assets because of sponsoring terror.
Ultimately there is no international law that says the US has the "right" to take Iranian money.
As a member of NPT Iran has the right to acquire and build civilian nuclear facilities
Iran gave up 98% of its uranium
Iran accepted the most stringent inspections ever, way above and beyond NPT requirements
In return to unfreeze their money and continue to run their civilian nuclear program
Iran abided by the deal
The only party not to honor its word is the United States of America.
Mr Meow wrote:Have read a few of these sources so far. Some of them are very legit. Some stories are highlighting when arms unintentionally go to terrorist groups though. Some of these articles state specifically the arms end up in the hands of ISIS but were not originally intended to go there
However the articles talking about the Obama administration arming the Al-Nusra are by in no way shape or form unintentional. They knew damn well what they were doing and did so on purpose. So yeah in terms of the US backing terrorists I would say the Al-Nusra under Obomba are unfortunately a great example of this
Fucking eh our government is horrible with middle eastern affairs
Will continue to read more of these links. Thanks again mr sir!
PBells wrote:CNN: "BREAKING: TRUMP AXES FEDERAL EMPLOYEES' ANNUAL RAISE"
NPR: "President Trump suggests cancelling annual raise for federal employees, though Congress has the final say."
Mr Meow wrote:anyways mr sir thank you for the links you provided. You have given me a lot to bite into! In a good way though. I enjoy reading about and researching these types of things.
EvilGorilla69+1 wrote:Mr Meow wrote:anyways mr sir thank you for the links you provided. You have given me a lot to bite into! In a good way though. I enjoy reading about and researching these types of things.
I am very happy with this shit. I was sad when I realized that Mr Meow had been fed lies by CNN and what not... It actually saddened me, that I erased it from my memory.
I am glad that you have the ability to change your mind when u are provided with new info.
MurderfaceMMA wrote:Trump did it! North Korea has agreed to end their nuclear program, and this isnt some pussy deal where they promise to end it, we lift the sanctions, then they go right back to it. No, this deal involves complete transparency. Journalists and experts from around the world have been invited to watch them dismantle and destroy their entire testing facility. This goes down in 2 weeks.