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question about rolling

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question about rolling

Postby TTY » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:33 pm

ok so when i roll if someone puts me in a submission i dont feel the need to tap unless the submission is on perfectly with proper technique. i dont feel there is a point to making someone feel like they are doing something right when its not (EX: an americana that does not have a proper 90 degree angle). i would not like for someone to just give me a submission so this is what i do back. any way the reason why i am asking this is because i feel like people arent happy when i do this and ive been told sometimes people will just let go of what they are doing. should i just give them the submission or should i continue with what im doing
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Re: question about rolling

Postby TTY » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:04 pm

really nothing?
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Re: question about rolling

Postby beast775 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:17 pm

I'm with you on this. I would probably allow a weaker/smaller(though that is rare) person get it, to help their confidence, then tell them how to improve their technique.

It's a shame this forum is so dead.

I've got a plan on getting more views in this forum, but the handful of people that venture here will have to come together;

Everyone loves to watch videos of fellow Linkers fighting, so every time any of us has a fight/competition in anything we post it in MMA Discussion and ask the mods to move it after a few days.

I might make an attempt at a thread at the weekend and invite those who post in the deeper darker depths of Linker.
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Re: question about rolling

Postby Fearless6691 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:01 pm

TTY wrote:ok so when i roll if someone puts me in a submission i dont feel the need to tap unless the submission is on perfectly with proper technique. i dont feel there is a point to making someone feel like they are doing something right when its not (EX: an americana that does not have a proper 90 degree angle). i would not like for someone to just give me a submission so this is what i do back. any way the reason why i am asking this is because i feel like people arent happy when i do this and ive been told sometimes people will just let go of what they are doing. should i just give them the submission or should i continue with what im doing

How does an Americana need a perfect 90 degree angle? If you put it down to the waist and turn their wrist it can be at any angle you want.
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Re: question about rolling

Postby TTY » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:36 pm

Fearless6691 wrote:
TTY wrote:ok so when i roll if someone puts me in a submission i dont feel the need to tap unless the submission is on perfectly with proper technique. i dont feel there is a point to making someone feel like they are doing something right when its not (EX: an americana that does not have a proper 90 degree angle). i would not like for someone to just give me a submission so this is what i do back. any way the reason why i am asking this is because i feel like people arent happy when i do this and ive been told sometimes people will just let go of what they are doing. should i just give them the submission or should i continue with what im doing

How does an Americana need a perfect 90 degree angle? If you put it down to the waist and turn their wrist it can be at any angle you want.



my bad i meant to say kimura, and i just meant like when the arm is stretcheed out and almost straight yet people still think you should be tapping
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Re: question about rolling

Postby Fearless6691 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:09 pm

TTY wrote:
Fearless6691 wrote:
TTY wrote:ok so when i roll if someone puts me in a submission i dont feel the need to tap unless the submission is on perfectly with proper technique. i dont feel there is a point to making someone feel like they are doing something right when its not (EX: an americana that does not have a proper 90 degree angle). i would not like for someone to just give me a submission so this is what i do back. any way the reason why i am asking this is because i feel like people arent happy when i do this and ive been told sometimes people will just let go of what they are doing. should i just give them the submission or should i continue with what im doing

How does an Americana need a perfect 90 degree angle? If you put it down to the waist and turn their wrist it can be at any angle you want.



my bad i meant to say kimura, and i just meant like when the arm is stretcheed out and almost straight yet people still think you should be tapping

Then it isn't a kimura, it is a straight arm bar, if you can't tap someone in a straight arm bar then you need to train at a new gym.
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Re: question about rolling

Postby KeyboardPacifist » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:59 am

TTY wrote:ok so when i roll if someone puts me in a submission i dont feel the need to tap unless the submission is on perfectly with proper technique. i dont feel there is a point to making someone feel like they are doing something right when its not (EX: an americana that does not have a proper 90 degree angle). i would not like for someone to just give me a submission so this is what i do back. any way the reason why i am asking this is because i feel like people arent happy when i do this and ive been told sometimes people will just let go of what they are doing. should i just give them the submission or should i continue with what im doing


1. The 'tap' is about protecting yourself. It's not about giving anyone anything.

2. 'Giving' a poorly placed armbar a 'tap' when you don't need to hurts you and him. It's hurts you .. because you need a lot of experience with the real thing in order to know more about applying it --- that includes the defense. Do you understand ?
It hurts him.. for the obvious reason that you stated.

3. If you have training partners who are too inexperienced and non-technical.. to make you tap. Guess what you do? You teach them. It's simple. What makes it difficult ? ........ Ego. You aren't trying to score taps on your own gym partners. You are trying to use each other to sharpen your game.. (or get one).

Stick to the basics and teach others to do so when they can't get the simple stuff down. Some guy can't slap on a straight armbar... remind him: keep the thumb perpendicular to the elbow ligament/tendon you are attacking... squeeze your knees together... only raise your hips AFTER you contain the movement of the scapula/humerus.... only cross your ankles if you have to fight off the counter-defense (and then be sure to not un-cross your knees while doing so).

To teach is to learn twice. That's golden.


4. You don't have to have the kimura at a 90 degree angle. You can attack the ant.delt/lat.epicondyle with the 90 angle or the sst with the acute angle. So don't get caught up on the visualization of angles. Focus on controlled movements that give you the greatest mechanical advantage over the submission.

5. Keep posting on this forum. :mrgreen:
[quote="MurderfaceMMA"] Sometimes you have to support one despot/dictator, in order to take out another more dangerous despot/dictator. [/quote]

lol... mma-math works in real life ?
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Re: question about rolling

Postby TTY » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:45 am

Fearless6691 wrote:
TTY wrote:
Fearless6691 wrote:
TTY wrote:ok so when i roll if someone puts me in a submission i dont feel the need to tap unless the submission is on perfectly with proper technique. i dont feel there is a point to making someone feel like they are doing something right when its not (EX: an americana that does not have a proper 90 degree angle). i would not like for someone to just give me a submission so this is what i do back. any way the reason why i am asking this is because i feel like people arent happy when i do this and ive been told sometimes people will just let go of what they are doing. should i just give them the submission or should i continue with what im doing

How does an Americana need a perfect 90 degree angle? If you put it down to the waist and turn their wrist it can be at any angle you want.



my bad i meant to say kimura, and i just meant like when the arm is stretcheed out and almost straight yet people still think you should be tapping

Then it isn't a kimura, it is a straight arm bar, if you can't tap someone in a straight arm bar then you need to train at a new gym.


im saying like when its in between a straight arm bar and a kimura also, depending on ur position a straight arm bar can be easy to escape although its one of my favoured submissions its not one of the most high percentage ones.
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Re: question about rolling

Postby TTY » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:46 am

f
Last edited by TTY on Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: question about rolling

Postby TTY » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:58 am

KeyboardPacifist wrote:
TTY wrote:ok so when i roll if someone puts me in a submission i dont feel the need to tap unless the submission is on perfectly with proper technique. i dont feel there is a point to making someone feel like they are doing something right when its not (EX: an americana that does not have a proper 90 degree angle). i would not like for someone to just give me a submission so this is what i do back. any way the reason why i am asking this is because i feel like people arent happy when i do this and ive been told sometimes people will just let go of what they are doing. should i just give them the submission or should i continue with what im doing


1. The 'tap' is about protecting yourself. It's not about giving anyone anything.

2. 'Giving' a poorly placed armbar a 'tap' when you don't need to hurts you and him. It's hurts you .. because you need a lot of experience with the real thing in order to know more about applying it --- that includes the defense. Do you understand ?
It hurts him.. for the obvious reason that you stated.

3. If you have training partners who are too inexperienced and non-technical.. to make you tap. Guess what you do? You teach them. It's simple. What makes it difficult ? ........ Ego. You aren't trying to score taps on your own gym partners. You are trying to use each other to sharpen your game.. (or get one).

Stick to the basics and teach others to do so when they can't get the simple stuff down. Some guy can't slap on a straight armbar... remind him: keep the thumb perpendicular to the elbow ligament/tendon you are attacking... squeeze your knees together... only raise your hips AFTER you contain the movement of the scapula/humerus.... only cross your ankles if you have to fight off the counter-defense (and then be sure to not un-cross your knees while doing so).

To teach is to learn twice. That's golden.


4. You don't have to have the kimura at a 90 degree angle. You can attack the ant.delt/lat.epicondyle with the 90 angle or the sst with the acute angle. So don't get caught up on the visualization of angles. Focus on controlled movements that give you the greatest mechanical advantage over the submission.

5. Keep posting on this forum. :mrgreen:


its not like im not defending the submissions properly, but i do agree i should help teach lesser experienced people more. im just bad at explaining things, also sometimes i feel douchey when telling someone they did something wrong. and i forgot the kimura doesnt have to be perfect im just so used to putting it on a 90 degree and going through the motions in my head its just the only way ive thought of it. any way thanks for your input, youve definately given me more to think about.
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Re: question about rolling

Postby Fearless6691 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:11 am

The second you think you know everything in BJJ is the second you get smoked.
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Re: question about rolling

Postby KeyboardPacifist » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:47 am

TTY wrote:i do agree i should help teach lesser experienced people more. im just bad at explaining things, also sometimes i feel douchey when telling someone they did something wrong. .


I hear ya.

Part of teaching is learning how to communicate in the language that the person will accept. A lot of us start by teaching in the tone that our authority taught us (ie, dad.. or mom.. or a coach). When that doesn't work, we'll teach in the way we like to be taught (which is reflective of a certain amount of maturity, that we know ourselves enough to do so). But each person has their own cueing.

A lot of times, when someone (you are not very close to) does a technique wrong.. it's helpful to start by saying:
"that's good. You got the basic motion, but the goal here is to attack [insert target] and we can do so by [insert method]."

By this, the person's defense will often not rise up (always a problem). If they have a big ego, you will easily bruise it and they won't listen. But if you explain the problem as a praise and a correction, they often see that you are on their side, helping them to be THAT much "more effective." And they will try it out.

I hope it works out with you & partners. Good luck!
[quote="MurderfaceMMA"] Sometimes you have to support one despot/dictator, in order to take out another more dangerous despot/dictator. [/quote]

lol... mma-math works in real life ?
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Re: question about rolling

Postby TTY » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:27 am

KeyboardPacifist wrote:
TTY wrote:i do agree i should help teach lesser experienced people more. im just bad at explaining things, also sometimes i feel douchey when telling someone they did something wrong. .


I hear ya.

Part of teaching is learning how to communicate in the language that the person will accept. A lot of us start by teaching in the tone that our authority taught us (ie, dad.. or mom.. or a coach). When that doesn't work, we'll teach in the way we like to be taught (which is reflective of a certain amount of maturity, that we know ourselves enough to do so). But each person has their own cueing.

A lot of times, when someone (you are not very close to) does a technique wrong.. it's helpful to start by saying:
"that's good. You got the basic motion, but the goal here is to attack [insert target] and we can do so by [insert method]."

By this, the person's defense will often not rise up (always a problem). If they have a big ego, you will easily bruise it and they won't listen. But if you explain the problem as a praise and a correction, they often see that you are on their side, helping them to be THAT much "more effective." And they will try it out.

I hope it works out with you & partners. Good luck!


good advice thanks man
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Re: question about rolling

Postby daaalvarado » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:55 pm

Here's what I think; When you tap you let the other person now that:

1. It hurts, beyond what you want to take, is getting dangerous.
2. You can't escape from it or don't know how to or don't have enough time to.
3. You submit, because 1 and 2.

If you are going against someone at your level or above, you must tap when it hurts beyond what you can take and don't know or don't have enough time to do a technical escape. If you're going against someone on your level and you tap on something that wasn't very tight or technical, you had chance to escape but were lazy you are doing yourself and your training partner a disservice. If something is starting to hurt but you have a clear technical escape you can do, go for it, if what he is doing is just painful but not necesarily dangerous don't tap build endurance to take that pain (e.g. Knee on belly, Body Triangle). If it doesn't hurt but you think is dangerous tap (e.g. Heel hook).

When I roll with someone less skilled than me, I open the game for them but don't give them the easy tap. I allow them to put me say spider guard, or take my back, or let them mount me, etc and use it as a good chance to practice transitions and escapes, and it allows them to develop better positioning learning, and learn what they need to do to control someone...

I always think that if you dominate positions the submissions will come later on... For example if you become proficient at taking the back, learning the rear naked choke will be easier. But you can learn the rear naked choke from the best instructor and the world but if you don't know how to take the back and control it you will never land that choke.
Hope I made sense!
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Re: question about rolling

Postby Fearless6691 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:57 am

daaalvarado wrote:Here's what I think; When you tap you let the other person now that:

1. It hurts, beyond what you want to take, is getting dangerous.
2. You can't escape from it or don't know how to or don't have enough time to.
3. You submit, because 1 and 2.

If you are going against someone at your level or above, you must tap when it hurts beyond what you can take and don't know or don't have enough time to do a technical escape. If you're going against someone on your level and you tap on something that wasn't very tight or technical, you had chance to escape but were lazy you are doing yourself and your training partner a disservice. If something is starting to hurt but you have a clear technical escape you can do, go for it, if what he is doing is just painful but not necesarily dangerous don't tap build endurance to take that pain (e.g. Knee on belly, Body Triangle). If it doesn't hurt but you think is dangerous tap (e.g. Heel hook).

When I roll with someone less skilled than me, I open the game for them but don't give them the easy tap. I allow them to put me say spider guard, or take my back, or let them mount me, etc and use it as a good chance to practice transitions and escapes, and it allows them to develop better positioning learning, and learn what they need to do to control someone...

I always think that if you dominate positions the submissions will come later on... For example if you become proficient at taking the back, learning the rear naked choke will be easier. But you can learn the rear naked choke from the best instructor and the world but if you don't know how to take the back and control it you will never land that choke.
Hope I made sense!

Spider guard? ewwwww gi
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