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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby Shuck » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:17 pm

Nice to see a gentleman debate

Lets throw out some #'s:

Israel has approx 8 million population, roughly 2 million of which are Arab

The rest of the entire Middle East has over 250 million people w/roughly 100k jews ... so which Country exactly is closing themselves off

Plz tell us more about Israels genocidal ways.. They seem to be doing a piss poor job at it if I may say
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby willmma » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:46 am

Shuck wrote:Nice to see a gentleman debate

Lets throw out some #'s:

Israel has approx 8 million population, roughly 2 million of which are Arab

The rest of the entire Middle East has over 250 million people w/roughly 100k jews ... so which Country exactly is closing themselves off

Plz tell us more about Israels genocidal ways.. They seem to be doing a piss poor job at it if I may say



interesting perspective Shuck. I never said genocide. I complained about occupation.

Your numbers are correct in Israel "proper", meaning beyond outside Gaza and the West bank

Image

For those Israeli Arabs, they are treated well, they have the right to vote and social services. But they are also treated more harshly by the authorities, they are more likely to get shot and killed if they protest. Their communities received poorer services, they face racism and segregation, much like Black people in America. Much of it is documented here https://www.english.acri.org.il

But that's not here or there. My beef is with the treatment of the other 2.5M arabs you omitted in your count. 1.7M in the West Bank and 1.8M in Gaza

The west bank went the rout of peace and negotiations (they laid down their weapons, better yet pointed them towards the Palestinians). For their efforts they got some financial relief, but not independence

* Financial relief: Israel collects taxes from Palestinians and chooses to punish the the Authority whenever it chooses by withholding it. https://www.wrmea.org/015-march-april/g ... stine.html.
But more worryingly they still physically and militarily control much of the land.
* Freedom of travel: Entry in and out of the west bank is strictly controlled. Travel between palestinian areas is also restricted with checkpoints. A trip that takes an illegal Israeli settler driving on a racist aparthied Jewish-only road in the west bank 20 minutes would take a Palestinian native hours and hours to cross. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestini ... f_movement
* Killings: Palestinians in the west bank are murdered by the IDF at a rate of 2.5 a month. https://www.btselem.org/statistics/fata ... ity-forces.
* Home demolitions: Home demolitions continue at about 10 a month over the last dozen years https://www.btselem.org/planning_and_bu ... statistics
* Settlements: The number of settlers increased by about 78% since Oslo from 231K to 413K http://peacenow.org.il/en/settlements-w ... population

People in the west bank laid down their weapons and the occupation grew faster.


In Gaza who is more combative against the occupation are being collectively punished with punitive wars or (mowing the lawn)
They are locked in, under siege. Farm lands are destroyed. Farmers shot. Fisherman hemmed in and shot. Food restrictions. Entire population put on a diet.
Killings: close to 1 person is killed by Israel EVERY DAY. https://www.btselem.org/statistics/fata ... e-of-death


The purpose of this whole thread is to point out the cruelty and abuse of Israeli occupation of the Palestinians. I'm against the occupation. Tell me again Shuck, where do you stand on the occupation?
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby Asso » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:57 pm

Shuck wrote:Nice to see a gentleman debate

Lets throw out some #'s:

Israel has approx 8 million population, roughly 2 million of which are Arab

The rest of the entire Middle East has over 250 million people w/roughly 100k jews ... so which Country exactly is closing themselves off

Plz tell us more about Israels genocidal ways.. They seem to be doing a piss poor job at it if I may say

Haha, I know, right. I think we broke the Internet.
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby Shuck » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:44 pm

willmma wrote:
Shuck wrote:Nice to see a gentleman debate

Lets throw out some #'s:

Israel has approx 8 million population, roughly 2 million of which are Arab

The rest of the entire Middle East has over 250 million people w/roughly 100k jews ... so which Country exactly is closing themselves off

Plz tell us more about Israels genocidal ways.. They seem to be doing a piss poor job at it if I may say



interesting perspective Shuck. I never said genocide. I complained about occupation.

Your numbers are correct in Israel "proper", meaning beyond outside Gaza and the West bank

Image

For those Israeli Arabs, they are treated well, they have the right to vote and social services. But they are also treated more harshly by the authorities, they are more likely to get shot and killed if they protest. Their communities received poorer services, they face racism and segregation, much like Black people in America. Much of it is documented here https://www.english.acri.org.il

But that's not here or there. My beef is with the treatment of the other 2.5M arabs you omitted in your count. 1.7M in the West Bank and 1.8M in Gaza

The west bank went the rout of peace and negotiations (they laid down their weapons, better yet pointed them towards the Palestinians). For their efforts they got some financial relief, but not independence

* Financial relief: Israel collects taxes from Palestinians and chooses to punish the the Authority whenever it chooses by withholding it. https://www.wrmea.org/015-march-april/g ... stine.html.
But more worryingly they still physically and militarily control much of the land.
* Freedom of travel: Entry in and out of the west bank is strictly controlled. Travel between palestinian areas is also restricted with checkpoints. A trip that takes an illegal Israeli settler driving on a racist aparthied Jewish-only road in the west bank 20 minutes would take a Palestinian native hours and hours to cross. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestini ... f_movement
* Killings: Palestinians in the west bank are murdered by the IDF at a rate of 2.5 a month. https://www.btselem.org/statistics/fata ... ity-forces.
* Home demolitions: Home demolitions continue at about 10 a month over the last dozen years https://www.btselem.org/planning_and_bu ... statistics
* Settlements: The number of settlers increased by about 78% since Oslo from 231K to 413K http://peacenow.org.il/en/settlements-w ... population

People in the west bank laid down their weapons and the occupation grew faster.


In Gaza who is more combative against the occupation are being collectively punished with punitive wars or (mowing the lawn)
They are locked in, under siege. Farm lands are destroyed. Farmers shot. Fisherman hemmed in and shot. Food restrictions. Entire population put on a diet.
Killings: close to 1 person is killed by Israel EVERY DAY. https://www.btselem.org/statistics/fata ... e-of-death


The purpose of this whole thread is to point out the cruelty and abuse of Israeli occupation of the Palestinians. I'm against the occupation. Tell me again Shuck, where do you stand on the occupation?


Will, have you been to Israel? You skipped that Q last time I asked it

Asso has been there, I lived there, Rattlesnake who grew up there was trying his best to enlighten you about how things actually go down there

If a Quarter of the Country is Arab & this Occupation was as bad and one sided as you claim, don't you think there would have been a civil war by now?

Like Asso said, you're only looking at things from one side of the fence. You believe everything you see on the news is reality.. I've been to the WBank.. If this is such a hot topic in your life why not buy a plane ticket & head out there, see things 1st hand rather then take someone else's word for it, cause you clearly won't take anyone's on here who is telling you they have.
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby willmma » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:08 pm

Shuck wrote:
Will, have you been to Israel? You skipped that Q last time I asked it


No, I have not.

Shuck wrote:Asso has been there, I lived there, Rattlesnake who grew up there was trying his best to enlighten you about how things actually go down there


I appreciate the enlightenment. Rattlesnake just gave me government propaganda fron Danny Yalon and other Israeli Hasbara.
According to Gideon Levy, Israeli Hasbarah is really only working on Israelis. In essence, Israelis are blind to the facts on the ground and themselves need enlightenment.

Shuck wrote:If a Quarter of the Country is Arab & this Occupation was as bad and one sided as you claim, don't you think there would have been a civil war by now?


There are Israeli arabs/Palestinians and there are Palestinians in the occupied territories. I said Israeli arabs, who make up 20% of the Israeli population, dont have it as bad. They can complain about equality and civil right, but that is well within the democratic institutions of the State of Israel to solve peacefully and amicably.

Then you have those in the west bank. My previous number is wrong, its 2.4M in the west bank and 1.7M in Gaza. Anyways, if you haven't noticed, it is that bad, there is an ongoing conflict with those Palestinians in the occupied territories. They protest on a weekly if not daily basis, Israel shoots to kill in response.

Shuck wrote:Like Asso said, you're only looking at things from one side of the fence. You believe everything you see on the news is reality.. I've been to the WBank.. If this is such a hot topic in your life why not buy a plane ticket & head out there, see things 1st hand rather then take someone else's word for it, cause you clearly won't take anyone's on here who is telling you they have.


As I said. I don't care about the inner happenings of Israeli proper. My complaint is about Israeli occupation.

Did you visit the WB or where you on duty?

When you were there maybe you didnt see events like these
Spoiler:










But if those were Hamas thugs harassing Jewish children, I'm sure you wouldn't be so dismissive.


I would love to go and visit. I've never had the money and time at the same time to make such a trip. Hope to go one day.
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby Shuck » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:28 am

willmma wrote:
Shuck wrote:
Will, have you been to Israel? You skipped that Q last time I asked it


No, I have not.

Shuck wrote:Asso has been there, I lived there, Rattlesnake who grew up there was trying his best to enlighten you about how things actually go down there


I appreciate the enlightenment. Rattlesnake just gave me government propaganda fron Danny Yalon and other Israeli Hasbara.
According to Gideon Levy, Israeli Hasbarah is really only working on Israelis. In essence, Israelis are blind to the facts on the ground and themselves need enlightenment.

Shuck wrote:If a Quarter of the Country is Arab & this Occupation was as bad and one sided as you claim, don't you think there would have been a civil war by now?


There are Israeli arabs/Palestinians and there are Palestinians in the occupied territories. I said Israeli arabs, who make up 20% of the Israeli population, dont have it as bad. They can complain about equality and civil right, but that is well within the democratic institutions of the State of Israel to solve peacefully and amicably.

Then you have those in the west bank. My previous number is wrong, its 2.4M in the west bank and 1.7M in Gaza. Anyways, if you haven't noticed, it is that bad, there is an ongoing conflict with those Palestinians in the occupied territories. They protest on a weekly if not daily basis, Israel shoots to kill in response.

Shuck wrote:Like Asso said, you're only looking at things from one side of the fence. You believe everything you see on the news is reality.. I've been to the WBank.. If this is such a hot topic in your life why not buy a plane ticket & head out there, see things 1st hand rather then take someone else's word for it, cause you clearly won't take anyone's on here who is telling you they have.


As I said. I don't care about the inner happenings of Israeli proper. My complaint is about Israeli occupation.

Did you visit the WB or where you on duty?

When you were there maybe you didnt see events like these
Spoiler:










But if those were Hamas thugs harassing Jewish children, I'm sure you wouldn't be so dismissive.


I would love to go and visit. I've never had the money and time at the same time to make such a trip. Hope to go one day.


Will, my recommendation, instead of us spending so much time on here debating back & fourth on someone else's here say, pump out a couple extra hours at work, pick up a side job, save up & make the trip there happen.. Go around to the Arab neighborhoods, speak to them 1st hand & get their take, I promise you that you will realize that things are much different then how they are portrayed.. War is an ugly thing, victims on both side do to circumstance, but this world ain't pretty & sometimes there are necessary stances you must take, as tough as they are, in order to assure the safety of your people.
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby willmma » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:59 am

Shuck wrote:
willmma wrote:
Spoiler:












Will, my recommendation, instead of us spending so much time on here debating back & fourth on someone else's here say, pump out a couple extra hours at work, pick up a side job, save up & make the trip there happen.. Go around to the Arab neighborhoods, speak to them 1st hand & get their take, I promise you that you will realize that things are much different then how they are portrayed.. War is an ugly thing, victims on both side do to circumstance, but this world ain't pretty & sometimes there are necessary stances you must take, as tough as they are, in order to assure the safety of your people.


Thanks for the tip. I'll try to go there.

You didn't answer me, where you on duty in the west bank? Or just a tourist?

Also, which on of those videos I have above is a tough stance to ensure the safety of your people?
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby Shuck » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:21 pm

willmma wrote:
Shuck wrote:
willmma wrote:
Spoiler:












Will, my recommendation, instead of us spending so much time on here debating back & fourth on someone else's here say, pump out a couple extra hours at work, pick up a side job, save up & make the trip there happen.. Go around to the Arab neighborhoods, speak to them 1st hand & get their take, I promise you that you will realize that things are much different then how they are portrayed.. War is an ugly thing, victims on both side do to circumstance, but this world ain't pretty & sometimes there are necessary stances you must take, as tough as they are, in order to assure the safety of your people.


Thanks for the tip. I'll try to go there.

You didn't answer me, where you on duty in the west bank? Or just a tourist?

Also, which on of those videos I have above is a tough stance to ensure the safety of your people?


You should

Tourist.. I didn't serve

I can't expect someone who lives in Canada & has never been to Israel to grasp what Israelis go through or someone who isn't Jewish to comprehend what it means to be a Jew.

When was the last time your Country was at War? Do you worry about your safety because of your boarders? Did your ancestors deal w/Genocide, the real version?

You think its so simple sitting in your safety & judging those who aren't as fortunate.. Take a step back, humble yourself & realize that you don't have a clue about what Israelis have dealt with or deal with to ensure their survival.

So for me to break down the evil behind a few vids serves no purpose, you need to grasp the roots of all of this..

Save up, take the trip & come back & talk to us after.. I promise you the weight behind your words will mean a heck of a lot more
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby willmma » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:41 am

Shuck wrote:You should

Tourist.. I didn't serve

I can't expect someone who lives in Canada & has never been to Israel to grasp what Israelis go through or someone who isn't Jewish to comprehend what it means to be a Jew.

When was the last time your Country was at War? Do you worry about your safety because of your boarders? Did your ancestors deal w/Genocide, the real version?


Sorry Shuck, I have to disagree.

I don't think I have to be Israeli or Jewish to grasp the conflict. I was never in Germany, or Rawanda, or South Africa but I can grasp that those situations were bad. But to be sure, in the past 47 pages of this thread I've presented facts, figures, and historical events. Many if not most of my references are Israelis themselves.

Nothing in my opinion of what your ancestors dealt with genocide makes it ok for a soldier to shoot an unarmed child who wasnt posing any threat to him in the head and celebrate like he did in my last video above. Rattlesnake thought renowned journalist Chris Hedges was exaggerating when he said Israeli soldiers shoot Palestinian children for sport, well it sure felt like he was enjoying the hunt.

It seems like you cant respond to anything I've presented so you are just finding a way out.

Shuck wrote:You think its so simple sitting in your safety & judging those who aren't as fortunate.. Take a step back, humble yourself & realize that you don't have a clue about what Israelis have dealt with or deal with to ensure their survival.

So for me to break down the evil behind a few vids serves no purpose, you need to grasp the roots of all of this..

Save up, take the trip & come back & talk to us after.. I promise you the weight behind your words will mean a heck of a lot more



I think I've shown through out this thread that I have enough knowledge.

My words may not have weight behind them in your opinion. But facts and numbers have a lot of weight behind them.
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby Shuck » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:24 am

willmma wrote:
Shuck wrote:You should

Tourist.. I didn't serve

I can't expect someone who lives in Canada & has never been to Israel to grasp what Israelis go through or someone who isn't Jewish to comprehend what it means to be a Jew.

When was the last time your Country was at War? Do you worry about your safety because of your boarders? Did your ancestors deal w/Genocide, the real version?


Sorry Shuck, I have to disagree.

I don't think I have to be Israeli or Jewish to grasp the conflict. I was never in Germany, or Rawanda, or South Africa but I can grasp that those situations were bad. But to be sure, in the past 47 pages of this thread I've presented facts, figures, and historical events. Many if not most of my references are Israelis themselves.

Nothing in my opinion of what your ancestors dealt with genocide makes it ok for a soldier to shoot an unarmed child who wasnt posing any threat to him in the head and celebrate like he did in my last video above. Rattlesnake thought renowned journalist Chris Hedges was exaggerating when he said Israeli soldiers shoot Palestinian children for sport, well it sure felt like he was enjoying the hunt.

It seems like you cant respond to anything I've presented so you are just finding a way out.

Shuck wrote:You think its so simple sitting in your safety & judging those who aren't as fortunate.. Take a step back, humble yourself & realize that you don't have a clue about what Israelis have dealt with or deal with to ensure their survival.

So for me to break down the evil behind a few vids serves no purpose, you need to grasp the roots of all of this..

Save up, take the trip & come back & talk to us after.. I promise you the weight behind your words will mean a heck of a lot more



I think I've shown through out this thread that I have enough knowledge.

My words may not have weight behind them in your opinion. But facts and numbers have a lot of weight behind them.


What response were you looking for? Anybody in their right mind would say that it is absolutely terrible for any civilians to lose their lives, especially woman & children.

There is horrific acts being inflicted form both sides, no denying that & I surely feel for the Palestinians as well.. What I'm saying that you don't grasp is how a history of war leads to this type of horror.. There is nothing pretty about it.. So like Asso & Rattle were telling you, yes Monsters are on both sides of the fence, terrible acts occur, but overall Israeli people don't hate Palestinians or try to harm them.. but they know that the restricted boarders in Gaza & the W Bank is a necessary Evil for their Safety & Survival.. something that I said, you wouldn't understand from the safety of your view.
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby willmma » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:42 pm

Shuck wrote:What response were you looking for? Anybody in their right mind would say that it is absolutely terrible for any civilians to lose their lives, especially woman & children.

There is horrific acts being inflicted form both sides, no denying that & I surely feel for the Palestinians as well.. What I'm saying that you don't grasp is how a history of war leads to this type of horror.. There is nothing pretty about it.. So like Asso & Rattle were telling you, yes Monsters are on both sides of the fence, terrible acts occur, but overall Israeli people don't hate Palestinians or try to harm them.. but they know that the restricted boarders in Gaza & the W Bank is a necessary Evil for their Safety & Survival.. something that I said, you wouldn't understand from the safety of your view.


What response I am looking for? Glad you asked. I will tell you the response I'm looking for. And it is defenitely not "the world is a bad place and there are terrible things done by both sides" because that solves nothing.

Most concur that a 2 state solution is the ideal solution. Israel and Palestine living side by side in peace. You cannot be for a two-state solution if you are for occupation and settlements and taking over the land of the other state. The response I'm looking for is "Yes Will, I agree, occupation is bad, Israel should retreat all its forces from the west bank, lift the siege from Gaza, empty the settlements and allow for an independent Palestine."

That is a solution that can bring peace. Occupation, settlements, army patrols, home demolitions, checkpoints, and continuous killings are not the solution to peace.
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby Shuck » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:07 pm

willmma wrote:
Shuck wrote:What response were you looking for? Anybody in their right mind would say that it is absolutely terrible for any civilians to lose their lives, especially woman & children.

There is horrific acts being inflicted form both sides, no denying that & I surely feel for the Palestinians as well.. What I'm saying that you don't grasp is how a history of war leads to this type of horror.. There is nothing pretty about it.. So like Asso & Rattle were telling you, yes Monsters are on both sides of the fence, terrible acts occur, but overall Israeli people don't hate Palestinians or try to harm them.. but they know that the restricted boarders in Gaza & the W Bank is a necessary Evil for their Safety & Survival.. something that I said, you wouldn't understand from the safety of your view.


What response I am looking for? Glad you asked. I will tell you the response I'm looking for. And it is defenitely not "the world is a bad place and there are terrible things done by both sides" because that solves nothing.

Most concur that a 2 state solution is the ideal solution. Israel and Palestine living side by side in peace. You cannot be for a two-state solution if you are for occupation and settlements and taking over the land of the other state. The response I'm looking for is "Yes Will, I agree, occupation is bad, Israel should retreat all its forces from the west bank, lift the siege from Gaza, empty the settlements and allow for an independent Palestine."

That is a solution that can bring peace. Occupation, settlements, army patrols, home demolitions, checkpoints, and continuous killings are not the solution to peace.


Sounds lovely, I'd also like to live in a world w/out any Nukes.. Go live there for a bit, share your war stories w/the Israelis.. Tell them your master plan.. See what their thoughts are.

I'll be waiting w/open ears.. till then, my apologies if your words coming from your seat don't mean much
Reason2Duck wrote:So who's deleting my old account?

TriggyWhore2025-Alpha: "Cuck get ready 2b buried by a whitebelt. Gonna drag this out for wks"
Few days Later.. :thunder:
TriggyWhore2025-Beta: "My favorite part is the fact that I gave up and he is still coming at me"
Spoiler:
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby willmma » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:43 pm

Shuck wrote:
Sounds lovely, I'd also like to live in a world w/out any Nukes.. Go live there for a bit, share your war stories w/the Israelis.. Tell them your master plan.. See what their thoughts are.

I'll be waiting w/open ears.. till then, my apologies if your words coming from your seat don't mean much


Saying the occupation is illegal and is the cause of Israelis killing Palestinians and Palestinians killing Israelis and that is should end is not "pie in the sky" talk.

Currently the extreme settler and right wing elements of the Israeli society,like this one here where she talks about kicking out more palestinians out of their homes with dreamy optimistic and hopeful smile, have taken control of the country.



There is not thought of peace or coexistence. There is no thought of a two state solution. Occupation is poison. I promise you many generations of Israelis and Palestinians will talk about their war stories for as long as the occupation continues.

All politicians cater to extreme elements. Netanyahu used to be considered the right wing, now compared to the righists out there he's a moderate.

Occupation is evil, it is illegal, it is the dagger in the heart of peace. All it needs is one courageous Israeli politician to say "no more".
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby Shuck » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:26 am

willmma wrote:
Shuck wrote:
Sounds lovely, I'd also like to live in a world w/out any Nukes.. Go live there for a bit, share your war stories w/the Israelis.. Tell them your master plan.. See what their thoughts are.

I'll be waiting w/open ears.. till then, my apologies if your words coming from your seat don't mean much


Saying the occupation is illegal and is the cause of Israelis killing Palestinians and Palestinians killing Israelis and that is should end is not "pie in the sky" talk.

Currently the extreme settler and right wing elements of the Israeli society,like this one here where she talks about kicking out more palestinians out of their homes with dreamy optimistic and hopeful smile, have taken control of the country.



There is not thought of peace or coexistence. There is no thought of a two state solution. Occupation is poison. I promise you many generations of Israelis and Palestinians will talk about their war stories for as long as the occupation continues.

All politicians cater to extreme elements. Netanyahu used to be considered the right wing, now compared to the righists out there he's a moderate.

Occupation is evil, it is illegal, it is the dagger in the heart of peace. All it needs is one courageous Israeli politician to say "no more".


Ofcourse the ideal scenario would be a 2 state solution but the powers at be don't want that.. Every claim you make points the blame at the Israeli side, this tells me you are either brainwashed or just not well enough informed. Who do you think is really in control in Gaza, you can vouch that they want peace, you're willing to put your life on the line to back this claim?
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Shuck
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Re: Israeli Abuse

Postby willmma » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:58 pm

Shuck wrote:
Ofcourse the ideal scenario would be a 2 state solution but the powers at be don't want that.. Every claim you make points the blame at the Israeli side, this tells me you are either brainwashed or just not well enough informed. Who do you think is really in control in Gaza, you can vouch that they want peace, you're willing to put your life on the line to back this claim?


My friend Shuck,

Are you saying there is an external power that is forcing Israel's hand in maintaining the occupation? "the powers at be" ?

You agree that a 2 state solution is ideal. This is true because the only other peaceful solution is a 1 state solution with Palestinians and Israelis living as equals in one state. I think either is fine, but 2 state is more realistic to achieve. Occupation is the defacto state for any non peaceful solution.

I blame Israel because it is the one occupying power. I don't see Palestinian forces roaming the streets of Tel Aviv. I don't see Palestinian soldiers setting up check points and control the freedom of movement of ALL Israelis. I don't see Palestinians building Arab only towns in the suburbs of Israeli town. But this is a matter of policy for Israel. This is what the Israeli public wants. This is what the Israeli politicians preach and campaign on. These are public statements.

Hamas, as bad as they are, they said will accept a two state solution. The PA went much further than that in recognizing the Israeli state and coordinating security efforts. Israelis say they will never accept a Palestinian state, they dont want to share Jerusalem, they don't want to give up the occupation, they want to grow the settlements, many political parties want to get rid of the Palestinians outright. They dont say these things secretly in dark rooms, they say it as public policy.

So other than blaming mystical powers and my brainwashing, who do you blame the occupation on?
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