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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby Shaka Zulu » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:18 pm

Ok I see your point. But like you said, its not theoretically impossible that this didn't occur. What other explanation is there? What proof is it that refutes this argument? I'm not too educated on mutation and things pertaining to this so I can't really argue too much about this topic. I have just stated my feelings on the matter and could be wrong. But again, it had to have started from a single pair, whether after the evolution of it or not. Unless miraculously new races were just dropped from the sky.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby exsanguinator » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:10 am

In regards to Shaka and JJ's discussion: I don't recall the bible saying that Adam and Eve were the 'only' couple, just that they may have been the 'first' couple. There are a lot of things that are left out of the bible. And most of those things that are left out are more important than the things that are left in. The thing that I dislike the most about most religion is the revisionist history that comes along with it.

Anyway, aside from my "you guys don't be fuckers" post, this is my official entry into the thread.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby PBells » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:21 am

JJpitty wrote:Also, about the inbred comment. The reason why inbreeding has such detrimental effects on populations in the increased prevalence of recessive disease. It is not because two genetically similar organisms cannot mate. The other detrimental aspect is that the gene pool will be quite restricted, making all individuals in a population susceptible to the same diseases, which then increases the likelihood a single epidemic could eliminate an entire population.


Yeah, hence "not surviving very well"...
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby Loyalty13 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:34 am

NoneSoVile wrote:It's a 12 part documentary, that's only the prologue to the story really. It basically shows what happens when science clashes with religion, very cool documentary. Here's part 6/12, enjoy. By the way, those "gaps" in evolution, they were referring to an accusation by creationists. They were claiming evolutionary theories were wrong, but of course, evolutionary theories are factual and confirmed as truths.


Something else that bothers me...I see alot of people saying things like "Evolution is JUST a theory"

Evolution is a scientific theory! Friction and gravity are also scientific theories. (We don't question gravity too much) :lol:

like where your head is my friend.
Also to answer some previous posts, we no longer see eveidence of human evolution for a couple of reasons. The main reason is our species plateaued. we evolved far to the point were we could build shelters, and realized survival would be easier if we worked together. Afte that point when we were no longer spending all of our time migrating and running from predators. As we learned to live somewhat peaceful amongst each other, and to protect oursleves from enviornment, we had no further reason to evolve physically.
Our evolution is now mental, and some argue emotional and spiritual.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby ShadowMoses42 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:07 am

JJpitty wrote:
NoneSoVile wrote:People can try to sugar coat it and cherry pick from their prefered holy book...but the fact of the matter remains. It's also 100% impossible for 2 people to pro-create the world. It's been scientifically proven, no questions about it. Do you know what would happen if a son impregnated his mother? A father impregnating his daughter? It's just not even remotely plausible for the human race to originate from a single bloodline.


I am actually curious. Besides the aspect of time, why would this not be possible? I am not saying I believe it, but I am curious as to the justification.


the gentetics are too similar and it causes mutations in the offspring...
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby JJpitty » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:41 pm

PsychoBells wrote:
JJpitty wrote:Also, about the inbred comment. The reason why inbreeding has such detrimental effects on populations in the increased prevalence of recessive disease. It is not because two genetically similar organisms cannot mate. The other detrimental aspect is that the gene pool will be quite restricted, making all individuals in a population susceptible to the same diseases, which then increases the likelihood a single epidemic could eliminate an entire population.


Yeah, hence "not surviving very well"...


Since you want to be arrogant about it, I am sure that is precisely what you meant (both mechanisms) since you elaborated on it so well by saying "they would be so inbreed they wouldn't survive very well".... Especially since inbreed populations often have no difficulty surviving.

But anyway, ShadowMoses. I have seen not literature that claims that inbreeding causes mutations, but if there is some I'd be interested in reading it (I'm being serious). I feel the mutations you may be referring to is the increased prevalence of individuals who are homozygous recessive for a deleterious allele that came to the population through random mutation.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby NoneSoVile » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:32 pm

I am actually curious. Besides the aspect of time, why would this not be possible? I am not saying I believe it, but I am curious as to the justification.


First off, I appreciate the input from everyone on this!
I've actually seen a few people that had parents who were related by blood (I think their parents were 1st cousins) and let me tell you...It wasn't a pretty picture. Google 'Birth Defects' if you're curious as to what I mean by this. There are several other solid reasons i base my arguement on, but i'll just put another blatantly obvious one....
According to the bible...Adam and Eve created all of mankind right? About 4-10 thousand years ago? (Do the math, 6 billion derived from 2? Nope...Not happening) Also...Black people? White people? Asian people? How does the bible explain these MASSIVE genetic differences between human species? Eve just randomly gave birth to a black baby one day with a completely different genetic composition showing no relation to the parent? :lol: Or they would just say "god did it."

We are too genetically diverse to come from the same mother 10,000 years ago...We evolved very slowly from common ancestory and our environment in which we evolved in (Africa compared to Europe) affected our physical attributes/race.

JJ, good arguements! I just can't see the human race starting like this...
The amount of time needed would be astronomical (we've only been around approx 100,000 years) considering the harmful effects on offsping inbreeding has, the genetic diversity our species displays etc. etc....Not to mention (like you've said) the lack of immunity to various diseases and lots more harmful shit involved with inbreeding.
I'm sure there was some inbreeding going on as the human race evolved, but I can't agree with the Adam and Eve stories...
Thanks for the support and the discussion guys
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby JJpitty » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:26 pm

NoneSoVile wrote:
I am actually curious. Besides the aspect of time, why would this not be possible? I am not saying I believe it, but I am curious as to the justification.


First off, I appreciate the input from everyone on this!
I've actually seen a few people that had parents who were related by blood (I think their parents were 1st cousins) and let me tell you...It wasn't a pretty picture. Google 'Birth Defects' if you're curious as to what I mean by this. There are several other solid reasons i base my arguement on, but i'll just put another blatantly obvious one....
According to the bible...Adam and Eve created all of mankind right? About 4-10 thousand years ago? (Do the math, 6 billion derived from 2? Nope...Not happening) Also...Black people? White people? Asian people? How does the bible explain these MASSIVE genetic differences between human species? Eve just randomly gave birth to a black baby one day with a completely different genetic composition showing no relation to the parent? :lol: Or they would just say "god did it."

We are too genetically diverse to come from the same mother 10,000 years ago...We evolved very slowly from common ancestory and our environment in which we evolved in (Africa compared to Europe) affected our physical attributes/race.

JJ, good arguements! I just can't see the human race starting like this...
The amount of time needed would be astronomical (we've only been around approx 100,000 years) considering the harmful effects on offsping inbreeding has, the genetic diversity our species displays etc. etc....Not to mention (like you've said) the lack of immunity to various diseases and lots more harmful shit involved with inbreeding.
I'm sure there was some inbreeding going on as the human race evolved, but I can't agree with the Adam and Eve stories...
Thanks for the support and the discussion guys


So I think you pretty much pulled together what I have been saying. It is not impossible for humans to have evolved from one breeding pair, however, given the context of the Bible (I actually hate referencing any religious book in particular since it is rather ethnocentric and the argument then does not apply to all religions) this could not be the case. The problem with an argument such as this is that not all people deem creation stories factual, rather they see it as just a fictional story. People with this belief who oppose evolution could then claim that god made humans (a single breeding pair or small subset of them) millions of years ago, thus explaining all of the genomic diversity we see. Since have have no evidence of humans existing that long, or long enough to account for all of the diversity we see, that argument is essentially out as well. I was simply trying to elaborate that inbreeding should not be the argument, it should rather be genomic diversity given our evidence of how long humans have existed, which some people have already mentioned. Granted inbreeding makes a scenario less likely; it is pretty much inductive reasoning (premises don't have to support the conclusion). The issue of diversity resulting from random mutation makes it almost impossible and relates more to deductive reasoning (premises must support the conclusion). Or at least the former is an example of weak induction and the latter strong induction. Is this making sense?

Back to inbreeding, racial diversity, etc. I think we need to be sure to say that inbreeding has the potential to be detrimental on a population, but in other instances in can have no negative impact. Actually, in some cases it can have a positive effect.

About the massive differences between human races. These differences actually aren't all that massive. Yes, there are differences that would take quite awhile to accumulate and be prevalent in the gene pool, but the difference isn't that great. When you think about it, the loss of a single gene (which can result from a single mutation) can have massive effects and even cause death. Phenotypically this causes us to think there must be a massive difference in the genetic structure, however, there is little difference genotypically.

Also, Psychobells, I realize my comment above seems quite hostile and I apologize. I don't want to be the one who turns this thread into a crap slinging contest (as I am convinced it will happen soon enough naturally :lol: ).
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby ShadowMoses42 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:35 pm

JJpitty wrote:
PsychoBells wrote:
JJpitty wrote:Also, about the inbred comment. The reason why inbreeding has such detrimental effects on populations in the increased prevalence of recessive disease. It is not because two genetically similar organisms cannot mate. The other detrimental aspect is that the gene pool will be quite restricted, making all individuals in a population susceptible to the same diseases, which then increases the likelihood a single epidemic could eliminate an entire population.


Yeah, hence "not surviving very well"...


Since you want to be arrogant about it, I am sure that is precisely what you meant (both mechanisms) since you elaborated on it so well by saying "they would be so inbreed they wouldn't survive very well".... Especially since inbreed populations often have no difficulty surviving.

But anyway, ShadowMoses. I have seen not literature that claims that inbreeding causes mutations, but if there is some I'd be interested in reading it (I'm being serious). I feel the mutations you may be referring to is the increased prevalence of individuals who are homozygous recessive for a deleterious allele that came to the population through random mutation.


ive heard of it for a while...but here is an article...http://www.cc.ysu.edu/~helorime/inbred.html...and i was talking about all kinds of mutations...like being more disease prone and lacking proper functionality of specific body parts...
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby JJpitty » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:13 pm

ShadowMoses42 wrote:
JJpitty wrote:
PsychoBells wrote:
JJpitty wrote:Also, about the inbred comment. The reason why inbreeding has such detrimental effects on populations in the increased prevalence of recessive disease. It is not because two genetically similar organisms cannot mate. The other detrimental aspect is that the gene pool will be quite restricted, making all individuals in a population susceptible to the same diseases, which then increases the likelihood a single epidemic could eliminate an entire population.


Yeah, hence "not surviving very well"...


Since you want to be arrogant about it, I am sure that is precisely what you meant (both mechanisms) since you elaborated on it so well by saying "they would be so inbreed they wouldn't survive very well".... Especially since inbreed populations often have no difficulty surviving.

But anyway, ShadowMoses. I have seen not literature that claims that inbreeding causes mutations, but if there is some I'd be interested in reading it (I'm being serious). I feel the mutations you may be referring to is the increased prevalence of individuals who are homozygous recessive for a deleterious allele that came to the population through random mutation.


ive heard of it for a while...but here is an article...http://www.cc.ysu.edu/~helorime/inbred.html...and i was talking about all kinds of mutations...like being more disease prone and lacking proper functionality of specific body parts...


Ah I see. My issue is that I cannot find any literature (as in peer-reviewed papers) that suggests that these congenital defect are the direct result of two genomes being too similar, rather than these afflicted offspring being homozygous recessive for some deleterious trait. I am still looking, but I am thinking not much has been done on this. If you find any mechanistic paper/site let me know.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby NoneSoVile » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:33 pm

We went from religion to genetics pretty quick :lol: Interesting posts gentlemen.
I guess I shouldn't speak in absolutes, nothing is 100%...Not even my atheism. I'm more like 99.9%...because I suppose it is possible, althought incredibley improbable, that god could descend into my computer room and punch me in the face. :D

Just like my 100% human race inbreeding post...I suppose that's more of a 99.9% kind of thing too :lol:
Although I still appreciate facts and making logical assertions based on evidence from reliable, credible sources! :idea:
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby JJpitty » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:44 pm

NoneSoVile wrote:We went from religion to genetics pretty quick :lol: Interesting posts gentlemen.
I guess I shouldn't speak in absolutes, nothing is 100%...Not even my atheism. I'm more like 99.9%...because I suppose it is possible, althought incredibley improbable, that god could descend into my computer room and punch me in the face. :D

Just like my 100% human race inbreeding post...I suppose that's more of a 99.9% kind of thing too :lol:
Although I still appreciate facts and making logical assertions based on evidence from reliable, credible sources! :idea:


:lol: I just like science to be interpreted in the correct manner, that is all.

Back to non-evolution related religious discussion
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby PBells » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:25 pm

No arrogance, it's just that being disease prone (especially prone to diseases that wipe-out entire populations) and weakened doesn't lend itself well to survival... :?
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby JJpitty » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:37 pm

PsychoBells wrote:No arrogance, it's just that being disease prone (especially prone to diseases that wipe-out entire populations) and weakened doesn't lend itself well to survival... :?


Oh no, I agree with you. But to be fair, inbreeding itself would not necessarily make an animal more disease prone. It would just reduce the variability of the immune systems in a population, which would be a big problem if say something like 1918 flu virus came along. So long story short, I agree 8)
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby Shaka Zulu » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:21 pm

I would first like to thank all you guys for your contributions to this thread. I would also like to thank you for being respectful in your responses; I didn't expect this thread to make it this far. This isn't an easy topic to discuss without it ending pretty disastrous. Most of the time when I'm debating, its with Christians so this kind of debate is fairly new to me and it has opened my eyes to learning new things, thanks to you guys. I always try to soak up knowledge from anything and anyone. Hell, you can learn great things even from a homeless guy.

Anyway, None what are these major differences in race that would prove that we didn't begin from one pair or race. Even Darwin was a monogenist. Though we do have different physical outer appearences, the anatomy of all of us is basically the same and, if you believe in evolution especially, we all have common ancestors, thus would lead to the same source. We are the same species regardless of our color.

Yes evolution is a fact, but as far as the mechanisms that cause evolution are only theories for now. Natural selection is a natural process resulting to the evolution of organisms to better adapt to its environment. Can it explain how this occurs and how it describes intelligent design? Also, I don't know much about the Biblical account on how long we've been here and how humans got here, but I'll tell you the little info Islam gives on the situation. For one, the Quran doesn't say we've been here for only 4,000 to 10,000 years. If anything, it gives the allusion that we've been here much longer. Also, it states that God made the heavens and the Earth before Adam. Science proves that there was no human life on Earth in the beginning. Also, God created Adam in Paradise( or heaven, however you describe it). If you believe this, then the laws of nature wouldn't apply to Him compared to the laws that we understand in this world. Here's where the lines get blurry, in the Quran when God expelled Adam and Eve from the Garden He said, Get down from here ALL OF YOU. Some scholars say that Adam and Eve had children in Paradise which would explain why He said all of you. Now, the problem is people try to explain how God put Adam on Earth. Nobody actually knows and guessing about it only makes things worse. Therefore, I'll only speak of things that I know and won't try to interpret things I have no knowledge of. This is the biggest problem in religion and when they try to do these things, they end up contradicting themselves.

Here's my philosophy on this matter and why I chose Islam. Before I did recognize there was a higher power but I couldn't make sense of it all. I was always infatuated with the power of one. What I mean by that, which scienxe can agree with me, everything can be broken down to its core, each element can be simplified to its simplest form. In other words everything has a beginning. But it begins with one, and after that, from that one, reproductively expands but it began with that ONE. Islam teaches us about Tawheed (the oneness of Allah) that he created on organism, breathed life into it, and from that one it reproduces into billions and the cycle continues. This is what infatuated me about Islam because it somewhat was what I would always ponder on before I learned about Islam. Whether you are an evolutionist or religious, you can't deny that every organism can be traced back to its source, in a sense that there was one( whatever organism) and then expanded. The universe was one unit of creation. Science has proven this, Islam recognizes this. Every organism on earth started with one and, ordained by our Laws of Nature, reproduces and so on and so on. This is a sign for me. Some things I wonder about are; if the universe was one, and water is on earth, it has to be elsewhere. Therefore, when the whole universe was together, surely there was water present within it. Wherever there's water, there is life. So, was there lifeforms within it before the Big Bang. If any of you have the answer, I'm all ears. Also, can science explain why only our species developed a concious. Also, if every animal evolved from the same organism, though animals and humans can live in the same environment, why we evolved how we did and they evolved differently. I believe "intelligent design" is used to admit, yes our creation is wondrous, but reject a higher power has created this because its beyond our understanding. Let me ask you this, if you loopk at a beautiful car, do you praise about how nice it is and are amazed from the person who made it? What about looking at the amazing creation of the human and the brain for which is used to make these things. I'm sure you are more amazed by the brain than a car because, in all honesty, it wouldn't be possible without our amzing brains. You mean to tell me you'll just accept intelligent design rather than an ultimate Creator being responsible for all this?

Like I said before, no religious scholors can tell you how God put us here on Earth. And if he tries, then he is dead wrong and speaks only of his beliefs. No one knows. We only know that God created Adam and Eve, the hreavens and the Earth before them, and eventually expelled them from the Garden of Eden. The way He did it is not known. Therefor I won't try to explain it. That to the side, information like this isn't of great importance. We are here and, depending on your perception on life and this world, there are so many signs of God. If you believe that, then you'll believe that there is a true religion out there. Which one makes the most sense to you is all on you. I chose Islam. It made the most sense to me, and believe me; everything I speak of is my views. No one taught me these things, no one tells me what to say in debates like these. I can honestly say I have taken this journey on my own will and understanding. I think this is the best way to approach anything.

Religion shouldn't be so complicated. Some people view religion as leading a depressing life, living in fear and paranoia. I disagree. Its fairly simple in my eyes. We are supposed to enjoy life. Though my life isn't near perfect, whose is? And yet, ihave much to be grateful for. My ability to hear, see, walk, and talk is something to be grateful because there are people that aren't able to do this. There are so many things that can happen to a person and it can all go away in the blink of an eye.

The question of why we are here or why would God create all of this is answered fairly simple in Islam.

God creasted us and everything in the universe as a reflection of His abilities. To create nothing into something great. To show us what He can do. He doesn't speak to us in words, but gives examples of things in everything around us. We are put here to praise His Glory, and for those who believe in Him and is rightous, there is a great reward for that person. He's given us just enough evidence to believe in His existence and enough room to not believe in Him. What good would our existence be if we knew with certainty He existed. There wouldn't be. The Quran states that " men of understanding" will see His signs and grasp the message. Life is a test and that's what it comes down to. Each will be judged accordingly to his knowledge, actions, and intentions. He says " no soul shall be dealt with unjustly, and if it be his good deeds are the weight of a mustard seed, we shall give him recompense for it, and sufficient enough are We to take account of it".
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