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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby bwawm » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:40 am

FranklinsTower wrote:
bwawm wrote:definitely brings new meaning to the term "chosen people" tho huh? :wink:



I don't know-- how do you mean assuming its even accurate?


Only if you are assuming its accurate the meaning would be changed from:

Chosen by god for the purpose of ….whatever the purpose of god's "choosing" them was (glorifying Yahweh or whatever) -----> to chosen by some egyptian lord/slavemaster for the purpose of reviving a dying religion.

I think thats pretty funny, especially when you consider all the history FOLLOWING these events.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby FranklinsTower » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:31 pm

bwawm wrote:
FranklinsTower wrote:
bwawm wrote:definitely brings new meaning to the term "chosen people" tho huh? :wink:



I don't know-- how do you mean assuming its even accurate?


Only if you are assuming its accurate the meaning would be changed from:

Chosen by god for the purpose of ….whatever the purpose of god's "choosing" them was (glorifying Yahweh or whatever) -----> to chosen by some egyptian lord/slavemaster for the purpose of reviving a dying religion.

I think thats pretty funny, especially when you consider all the history FOLLOWING these events.



Like I said I really cant say too much because I haven't read the text in question. It sounds like there is no definitive proof though. But lets say there were-- it would not matter one bit honestly. God executes Its will while using many and diverse people and events in history to do so. It would not matter at all if we found out God had used some Egyptian overlord. It has always been from the earliest days of Christianity well established that the events of the old testament are semi-historical and not strictly historical. If it could be established somehow with certainty that Moses never existed at all -- nothing would change for Christianity.


From the perspective of Christianity the ultimate purpose of all of the events in the old testament was to prepare and purify a people for the purpose of bringing Christ into the world. Christ the God/man had to come into the world through a people who could/would willingly allow that-- they had to be purified by the law and at the same time broken by it so as to be capable of a certain kind of surrender and allowance. Mary the mother of Jesus was the person in whom the purification and willingness and perfect submission was so complete that she could give birth to the Christ and allow that new light to dawn on human consciousness.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby bwawm » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:10 am

Ya I thought it was clear we were talking about jews...do christians refer to themselves as the chosen people now?

I would like to point out, however, that this thread is at 384 pages so I didn't imagine things like proof would stop an interesting conversation....

after all the topic is ancient religions so if this sentiment was shared by more people this thread would have 4 maybe 5 pages?
Last edited by bwawm on Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby The Smurf » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:53 pm

oumbayaaa my lord ...oumbayaaaaaaaa... oumbaya my lord ....oumbayaaaaaaa....
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby FranklinsTower » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:14 pm

bwawm wrote:Ya I thought it was clear we were talking about jews...do christians refer to themselves as the chosen people now?

I would like to point out, however, that this thread is at 384 pages so I didn't imagine things like proof would stop an interesting conversation....

after all the topic is ancient religions so if this sentiment was shared by more people this thread would have 4 maybe 5 pages?




I honestly don't know how it would effect the Jewish religion either. I have a Jewish Torah with extensive commentary and one thing that really stands out is how informed and educated it is--the whole system really--so if scholarly opinion has called the existence of Moses into question I am sure it is not new to Jewish theologians.

I think we are having a good conversation..... I did not intend the proof comment to have any bite at all-- sorry if I was not clear. My main point was just to illustrate that much of what people think would destroy religion really wouldn't and doesn't.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby bwawm » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:07 am

Ya the "people think will destroy a religion" was the mood I was picking up on…you always so touchy?

Jews make a big deal about marrying and/or sexing up other Jews (not so much on the secular side but the closer you get to orthodoxy the truer this is)..its the ethnocentrism combined with the most central and celebrated figure being not jewish is what makes it funny-it has nothing to do with destroying a religion. The fact that their gene pool is still distinct intact despite having not had a homeland or native nation for 1800 years was the history I was alluding to (not the Christian religion as it appears you may have assumed)…I don't even know how christianity would tie in to it.

irony is funny and religion happily lives on brother :D
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby FranklinsTower » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:54 am

bwawm wrote:Ya the "people think will destroy a religion" was the mood I was picking up on…you always so touchy?

Jews make a big deal about marrying and/or sexing up other Jews (not so much on the secular side but the closer you get to orthodoxy the truer this is)..its the ethnocentrism combined with the most central and celebrated figure being not jewish is what makes it funny-it has nothing to do with destroying a religion. The fact that their gene pool is still distinct intact despite having not had a homeland or native nation for 1800 years was the history I was alluding to (not the Christian religion as it appears you may have assumed)…I don't even know how christianity would tie in to it.

irony is funny and religion happily lives on brother :D


I'm not feeling touchy at all man-- as I said in my last post I just was not clear enough-- if you don't believe me after this then our discussion cant go on in good faith. A few posts ago you said of the Jews-- "Chosen by god for the purpose of ….whatever the purpose of god's "choosing" them was (glorifying Yahweh or whatever) -----> to chosen by some egyptian lord/slavemaster for the purpose of reviving a dying religion." I was making the point that even if true it doesn't and wouldn't really undo anything in the end, and gave reasons why I thought that.

What it has to do with Christianity ought to be obvious-- the entirety of the old testament is the foundation of the Christian religion- Jesus quoted and drew from it extensively-- so any serious change in understanding of that text has its effects on Christianity.

If your trolling me or don't believe me when I tell you I'm not getting touchy then your being willfully difficult and I'm gonna lose interest.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby beast775 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:47 pm

fragiskos25 wrote:oumbayaaa my lord ...oumbayaaaaaaaa... oumbaya my lord ....oumbayaaaaaaa....


Kumbaya, bro.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby FranklinsTower » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:52 pm

I was going to say also that if any people of a certain ethnicity want to marry within that ethnicity to preserve it-- that is fine with me. Personally I am a mutt so there is just nothing to preserve on my end so I cant relate....
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby bwawm » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:43 pm

FranklinsTower wrote:
bwawm wrote:Ya the "people think will destroy a religion" was the mood I was picking up on…you always so touchy?

Jews make a big deal about marrying and/or sexing up other Jews (not so much on the secular side but the closer you get to orthodoxy the truer this is)..its the ethnocentrism combined with the most central and celebrated figure being not jewish is what makes it funny-it has nothing to do with destroying a religion. The fact that their gene pool is still distinct intact despite having not had a homeland or native nation for 1800 years was the history I was alluding to (not the Christian religion as it appears you may have assumed)…I don't even know how christianity would tie in to it.

irony is funny and religion happily lives on brother :D


I'm not feeling touchy at all man-- as I said in my last post I just was not clear enough-- if you don't believe me after this then our discussion cant go on in good faith. A few posts ago you said of the Jews-- "Chosen by god for the purpose of ….whatever the purpose of god's "choosing" them was (glorifying Yahweh or whatever) -----> to chosen by some egyptian lord/slavemaster for the purpose of reviving a dying religion." I was making the point that even if true it doesn't and wouldn't really undo anything in the end, and gave reasons why I thought that.

What it has to do with Christianity ought to be obvious-- the entirety of the old testament is the foundation of the Christian religion- Jesus quoted and drew from it extensively-- so any serious change in understanding of that text has its effects on Christianity.

If your trolling me or don't believe me when I tell you I'm not getting touchy then your being willfully difficult and I'm gonna lose interest.


Its all good amigo-we don't all have the same interests to begin with right? I'm really not trying to troll I was trying to start a conversation about the implications of an alternative historical perspective…you were just the only person interested enough to address it and it turned into a different conversation because I dropped a joke that didn't land. Which makes me think maybe this is the conversation you wanted to have?

I forgot I said that but thats a good one too! When you look at how much the slavery aspect has contributed to the identity of the people in successive generations its either funny or a bit sad that their greatest prophet was totally one of the dudes that owned/enslaved them. *Do I still have to say assuming this is true or have we established that*? I think its pretty funny (especially considering the Torah condones slavery) and, almost as ironic as an ethnocentric group of people worshipping a prophet whose not of that ethnicity!

I completely agree with the last post of yours tho! I don't mean to put any value on this stuff (value is an entirely subjective commodity) so when I remark that they're ethnocentric and comment on the irony involved when the aforementioned group worships someone outside of that ethnic group its nothing more. I'm not trying to get caught up in the ethical dilemmas involving endogamy or even start a conversation about it. Just trying to crack a joke.

assuming your still reading I'd like to address a point of curiosity...
Notice how you feel compelled to add "if its even true" all the time (despite the fact that neither of us have argued the topic to be true)? Why do you feel as though religious claims don't need to be prefaced with "assuming this is even true"? You just told me with certainty that their needed to be in place certain conditions in order for the entrance of Jesus to be a possibility (so many holes and so much subjectivity!) that Mary was the perfect embodiment of these dichotomous conditions (zero proof and zero first hand accounts of her life ... and subjective again) and that her giving birth to christ allowed for the "dawn of human consciousness" (again; subjective, unsubstantiated and a blanket statement to boot). Does that not strike you as odd? You drop ridiculous far reaching claims with zero proof and turn into a skeptic on a dime?
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby FranklinsTower » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:40 pm

bwawm wrote:
FranklinsTower wrote:
bwawm wrote:Ya the "people think will destroy a religion" was the mood I was picking up on…you always so touchy?

Jews make a big deal about marrying and/or sexing up other Jews (not so much on the secular side but the closer you get to orthodoxy the truer this is)..its the ethnocentrism combined with the most central and celebrated figure being not jewish is what makes it funny-it has nothing to do with destroying a religion. The fact that their gene pool is still distinct intact despite having not had a homeland or native nation for 1800 years was the history I was alluding to (not the Christian religion as it appears you may have assumed)…I don't even know how christianity would tie in to it.

irony is funny and religion happily lives on brother :D


I'm not feeling touchy at all man-- as I said in my last post I just was not clear enough-- if you don't believe me after this then our discussion cant go on in good faith. A few posts ago you said of the Jews-- "Chosen by god for the purpose of ….whatever the purpose of god's "choosing" them was (glorifying Yahweh or whatever) -----> to chosen by some egyptian lord/slavemaster for the purpose of reviving a dying religion." I was making the point that even if true it doesn't and wouldn't really undo anything in the end, and gave reasons why I thought that.

What it has to do with Christianity ought to be obvious-- the entirety of the old testament is the foundation of the Christian religion- Jesus quoted and drew from it extensively-- so any serious change in understanding of that text has its effects on Christianity.

If your trolling me or don't believe me when I tell you I'm not getting touchy then your being willfully difficult and I'm gonna lose interest.


Its all good amigo-we don't all have the same interests to begin with right? I'm really not trying to troll I was trying to start a conversation about the implications of an alternative historical perspective…you were just the only person interested enough to address it and it turned into a different conversation because I dropped a joke that didn't land. Which makes me think maybe this is the conversation you wanted to have?

I forgot I said that but thats a good one too! When you look at how much the slavery aspect has contributed to the identity of the people in successive generations its either funny or a bit sad that their greatest prophet was totally one of the dudes that owned/enslaved them. *Do I still have to say assuming this is true or have we established that*? I think its pretty funny (especially considering the Torah condones slavery) and, almost as ironic as an ethnocentric group of people worshipping a prophet whose not of that ethnicity!

I completely agree with the last post of yours tho! I don't mean to put any value on this stuff (value is an entirely subjective commodity) so when I remark that they're ethnocentric and comment on the irony involved when the aforementioned group worships someone outside of that ethnic group its nothing more. I'm not trying to get caught up in the ethical dilemmas involving endogamy or even start a conversation about it. Just trying to crack a joke.

assuming your still reading I'd like to address a point of curiosity...
Notice how you feel compelled to add "if its even true" all the time (despite the fact that neither of us have argued the topic to be true)? Why do you feel as though religious claims don't need to be prefaced with "assuming this is even true"? You just told me with certainty that their needed to be in place certain conditions in order for the entrance of Jesus to be a possibility (so many holes and so much subjectivity!) that Mary was the perfect embodiment of these dichotomous conditions (zero proof and zero first hand accounts of her life ... and subjective again) and that her giving birth to christ allowed for the "dawn of human consciousness" (again; subjective, unsubstantiated and a blanket statement to boot). Does that not strike you as odd? You drop ridiculous far reaching claims with zero proof and turn into a skeptic on a dime?



Officially lost interest.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby exsanguinator » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:54 am

We all need some place we can go away to, some place where we can be who we should have been instead of who we are.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby FranklinsTower » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:11 am

exsanguinator wrote:http://www.cracked.com/article_22346_5-stories-everyone-assumes-are-in-bible-but-arent.html

Franklin, thoughts?


I had two full pages written out in answer to this and then in some way that I cannot explain I accidentally deleted it. Here goes again.


Sodom and Gomora-- It is true that this story has been carelessly or intentionally used to condemn Homosexuality when it was actually clearly about sexual violence. References in the New Testament could also be argued against referring to homosexuality as we know it today because of the setting-- Rome --and all the sexual debauchery that Rome was known for including keeping young boys as sexual toys. Paul may have never been exposed to any kind of loving long term same sex relations.

Mary-- Yep

Devil-- the evolution of who the devil is through the old to new testament can be seen as an evolution in understanding of who God is. Over time human understanding sees God as more good and more loving, and over time the Devil gets more evil and more separate from God. Jesus comes out clearly in favor of the notion that the devil and God do not work together and that the devil is a liar and the father of lies. The main point to be taken here in my opinion is that human understanding of God and self and others is evolving forward and getting better over time.

7 deadly sins-- I am a huge fan of this classification system (with a few additions). No one thinks that this system is in the bible word for word but it does accurately get to the bottom of most of the sins that are mentioned in the bible. It is a great way to take inventory of our lives and motivations and uncover what needs healed in us. I use it regularly and it is the very best method i have ever come across for illuminating bullshit in myself.

I should mention that the whole idea that something a church teaches ought to be in the bible word for word could only exist in the vacuum of authentic spirituality that the evangelical proclamation Sola Scriptura has created. From the very beginning of Christianity to today no one has ever believed that only scripture is authoritative. Sola Scriptura is just a modern fabrication and has no foundation at all-- its just made up and it is stupid and responsible for tons of bullshit in Christianity today.

Purgatory as an idea is also very attractive to me taken in the right context. I am a fan of Orthodox theology myself and they have never really given a shit about hell. In fact in the first 500 years of Christianity hell had a very broad and loosely defined nature. Many very important theologians in the early church were Universlists and believed that everyone goes to heaven Christian or not good or not-- eventually. The Orthodox church still holds this position-- not that they are sure everyone goes to heaven but just they they think everyone does. Catholicism is more strict but it is still OK in that system to hope that everyone is saved and many people think so.

Taken in this light purgatory is just the place someone goes to be purified until they are able to live in heaven. Heaven is a place of complete union with the infinity of Gods love, life and being-- heaven is a full participation in that love and life- it is cosmic. On top of that heaven is a state where through union with God in love we experience a total union with all beings in that love but without losing our individual self. This union with God and creatures is something that has to be entered into willingly-- it is not forced -- but then again there is no where else to go as nothing else has been created. Purgatory is where you go to be purified by the fire of Love till you can live in perfect love and mystical union with God and all creation.

Its true that purgatory is not in the bible but so what -- the bible was written by people in tradition -- there is no reason for tradition to end just because it was written. Ultimately I don't care weather purgatory exists or not but it makes sense to me for lots of reasons that are to involved to write here.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby FranklinsTower » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:35 am

^^^^^^

I meant to add that theology is the body of teaching that makes logical sense in light of what the bible already says. There are many seemingly contradictory statements made in the New Testament-- when you take all of them together certain ideas form themselves that can reconcile all of those different ideas. Purgatory is one of them but so is the doctrine of the Trinity. Apophaticism is another of those ideas as are uncreated energies which reconcile statements made about Gods unknowability with statements made about the intimacy that can be had with God.

These ideas like the Trinity, apophaticism and uncreated energies make really good sense especially if you are walking the mystical path and having direct encounters with the realities or (subjective experiences) that these ideas illuminate-- then the ideas serve as an incredibly helpful map for navigating these realities and coming into union with them.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby Shaka Zulu » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:01 pm

Haven't chimed in on this thread in a while but I will be back when I have time
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