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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby Shaka Zulu » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:53 pm

NoneSoVile wrote:
mcpoopants wrote:one unexplained occurrence that makes the theory of religion or an actual human spirit seems almost plausible are ghost, i mean they are documented, they're real and and science can't explain it.


I disagree. I think ghosts (along with bigfoot, lochness and cave trolls) are all fictional with zero scientific evidence. The documentation of "ghosts" is usually in the form of a person making alot of money off of their story/experience.

There is also zero evidence of there being a "spirit" or magical life form dwelling in each human being, seperating us from animals. This whole spirit nonsense was created to give people an arrogance over other life on earth (in my opinion) and, unfortunate as it sounds, we are equal to the rest of the life on this planet. As much as I would love to live the fantasy, we go the same place a cat goes when it dies.
As a matter of fact, I like my cat more than most people I know. Just thought I'd throw that out there. :lol:


You bring a good point about bigfoot, lochness, etc. Those could very well be myths for the simple fact that there is no solid evidenc of these. That doesn't mean that there aren't such creatures as these. Especially creatures in the oceans; scientist have only explored less than 10% of the oceans yet are finding new species. You can't rule out anything can exist beyond our imagination.

For example, if I were to tell you there is a bird that lives in the arctics that can't fly, walks 50 miles to mate to a location its forefathers would go, off of instinct, must resist below 30 degree weather and raging snowstorms, and must wait 4 months without food to protect the young while the mother goes back to sea for food. And the cycle continues with their young, you probably wouldn't believe me but its documented( March of the Penguins BABY!!!!) I used this as an example to show that some things are beyomd our understanding and just because you can't see it or science hasn't verified it yet, doesn't rule out that its possible. Scientists still don't understand how or why we sleep or dream but all of us do it. Dreams especially are things of mystery but are so real when we are in them. I know about the pineal gland and what not but that only explains very little on the subject.

As far as spirits go, in Islam there is such a thing as Jinn(demons). These are creatures made from pure fire which we can't see them but they can see us. They live and die like us and there are good ones, bad ones, Christian ones, Muslim ones,etc. This is also something that takes faith to believe because they haven't been "scientifically" proven but there are many people who claim to have encountered spiritual beings.

One final note, why are humans the supreme creature on earth? What seperates humans from other earthly creatures? The human is molded just right physically to build and travel, the human brain and the knowledge it possesses and the abililty to innovate seperates us from other creatures. This doesn't mean we are better than all animals, but, as far as our teachings, man was put here to rule the land justly and be merciful to all creatures. We are taught that the difference between us and animals is the soul. We have them, they don't. We'll be judged from our deeds, they won't. Seems plausible to me. And yes, Islam does agree with extra terrestrial beings as well( from other galaxies)
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby NoneSoVile » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:55 pm

Good posts Shaka,
Yea I like to feel we're on equal level with other life forms on this planet. We're simpley a highly evolved, highly intelligent (and highly destructive) primate. I can't accept ghosts, spirits or demons...It just doesn't compute in my mind how something like that can exist... but! I totally agree there are species in the ocean with a somewhat mythical appearance and demeanor, that are probably undiscovered or thought extinct.

I hear you, there are certain animals that are amazing and possess incredible abilties...but it's still not an excuse to throw common sense out the window and just accept the fact that, since there are penguins, there's probably demons and magic spirits too. Until there's documented, solid scientific evidence that spirits, demons, the loch ness monster, fairies etc. exist...I'm going to say they don't. Same thing with god. :lol:
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby Shaka Zulu » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:06 pm

NoneSoVile wrote:Good posts Shaka,
Yea I like to feel we're on equal level with other life forms on this planet. We're simpley a highly evolved, highly intelligent (and highly destructive) primate. I can't accept ghosts, spirits or demons...It just doesn't compute in my mind how something like that can exist... but! I totally agree there are species in the ocean with a somewhat mythical appearance and demeanor, that are probably undiscovered or thought extinct.

I hear you, there are certain animals that are amazing and possess incredible abilties...but it's still not an excuse to throw common sense out the window and just accept the fact that, since there are penguins, there's probably demons and magic spirits too. Until there's documented, solid scientific evidence that spirits, demons, the loch ness monster, fairies etc. exist...I'm going to say they don't. Same thing with god. :lol:


Can't knock you for feeling that way. In religion, common sense is always thrown out the window. I didn't use the penguins to prove that spiritual beings exist, but more so to show that there are things out there that we have seen that are beyond our understanding and yet, we haven't even scratched the surface on discovering all that is on earth, let alone the universe as a whole. As small as this world is and the little time that we are here, its unlikely we'll discover everything out there but then again, you never know. Maybe we shouldn't find these things. Maybe we couldn't handle the reality of it.

As far as spiritual beings go, I believe that they can and do exist. The way I see it, humans and animals, without the breath of life or inner spiritual being is nothing but dirt. Literally. Therefore, would it be hard for the Creator who made our spiritual being with a body, make one without a body? Again this would take faith and common senselessness( don't know if that's a real word) to believe these things.

If I may ask NoneSoVile, what are your reasons for not believing in God? I'm not judging you, just curious. :|
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby Shaka Zulu » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:37 pm

Hey what happened to your post None? Oh well, I remember most of what you said.

You know, one thing I've learned in life that is most important to me is to NEVER judge anyone, no matter how well you know them or even a complete stranger. Though we all live on the same planet, we all see different worlds through our eyes. I can't blame you for not seeing eye to eye with me and in fact, I can understand why you and many people have these views pertaining a higher power or past and current world affairs. Believe me, I don't see a beautiful world either. So much violence, chaos, and deception, it can take a toll on a persons sanity and faith. But life is what you make it. We all have different defintions of happiness. To me, a good comfortable life, good books, MMA :biggrin: , and my family is sufficient enough. To some people, the entire world and everything in it isn't enough. Its all about how you see things and what makes you happy is all that matters.

Also, I totally agree with about how there are good people out there who are not religious. As a matter of fact, I think the majority of non-religous people are more kind than the religious ones. I also think the most vile of people are much of the "leaders" of almost all religions. It is the people that are educated in scripture but have evil attributes that receive the worse punishment in the afterlife, in my religion and I'm sure in others. Our beliefs teach us that God judges a person on his intentions and our actions based on our intellect. A rightous person that hasn't been introduced to God the correct way would be forgiven before an evil person praising God day in and day out to look rightous in the eyes of the people. Not everyone can be judged the same. And yes, its sad that there are people who force their ideals onto their children and brainwash them into their beliefs, but truth is something that should be sought for, not what a person teaches you. No matter how good of a teacher you have, it all comes down to your perception of it. And what you were taught should not get in the way of searching for more truth. Truth isn't a destination but more so a journey that can go on for aye.

And how you mentioned suicide bombers and people crashing planes in buildings, well this can't be considered in the name of religion but actually more on an individual's agenda. Any religion that promotes the killing of innocents is not a real religion. Prophet Mohammad once said" he who kills an innocent soul, it is as though he has killed all of mankind.
I agree that there is a lot of evil in the world, but what good is good without evil. In other words, we all live on free will, we know what we do wrong and we know what is right, and like you said, it doesn't take anyone to teach you these things. We all have a concious which, is something that also makes me believe this is wisdom from our Creator. Even babies acquire conciousess. Now, there are people who choose to do good and some who choose evil. And how you said God scares the shit out of people, in a way it should, but you failed to mention that we should also anticipate the mercy and forgiveness of God. Hell fire does sound like a scary thing but imagine if Paradise is real. How beautiful would it be. One thing is certain, we all will die so would it hurt to believe in God and Paradise. You really don't have anything to lose and if its true, then that would be a mighty reward.

Lastly, yes in a way Greek Mythology is more interesting, but its still mythology. Have you read the Quran or the Bible. I've found many beautiful and intruiging stories in these books about the prophets and the teachings of these books. They aren't meant for entertainment, but for guidance and spiritual lessons. I believe if God was to send His word to mankind, it would be very basic and easy to understand for even the least intelligent. This is how Islam is. It goes straight to the point and it makes a lot of sense to me. Having multiple gods seems unreasonable to me. For example, say I'm a god and you're a god and we have a servant that did something wrong. I want to punish him, you want to forgive him; here we have a problem. In the Quran God says " if there had been more gods besides Allah they would have been destroyed". Makes a lot of sense to me. And about idols that are worshipped He says" they have no power to protect nor harm you, not even themselves" and that they can't even create a fly. Its all in believing in the power of the One. Think about it, you have parents, they have parents and so on and so on until you get to the top of the pyramid of mankind all the way to the first person( Adam) and his mate from his rib. Kind of like the debate on what came first, the chicken or the egg. Either way it goes it had to start from one. So does the belief of One God seem so farstretched? Not to me. All of mankind should be one, religion should be one for our God is One and in His eyes we're all the same; His creation, His servants.
Resurrection seems hard to believe but look at the trees and vegetation. Every year thay die and are brought back to life. We're so used to this we overlook this miracle. We're taught that that's how we'll be resurrected.

Ill stop here for now and would love to keep this going. I'm having fun with this.[code][/code]
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby NoneSoVile » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:52 am

Yea Shaka...Where the hell did my post go? :lol: I didn't delete it or anything, wtf.

Hmmm..Well, you have some good points and also very surprisingly intellectual responses considering your deep faith. I completely agree with alot of things you said about perception, a personal definition of happiness etc. I also appreciate your responses.

The things I do disagree on are...
These suicide bombings and genocides are completely based on religion. Not a persons individual views. It's the same indoctrination children get in north america, just add a bomb, a promise of virgins in heaven and you got yourself a martyr.

Everybody possesses a conscious and I don't think it's a gift, simpley a part of who we are. Animals since the beginning of time have formed packs, prides, herds, schools. Why? Survival. A gift from god? No, it was the first glimmer of a primative society...morales, rules, laws etc. are all built on the simple act of animals 'getting along' with each other.

Yes, the thought of floating around in heaven with my dead family does sound intriguing (although quite absurd) I just cannot accept the myth. This is the 21st century and a kingdom in the sky (hell below) would sound plausible in the 12th century...but how long can we play these games and maintain a straight face? Do you REALLY think it makes ANY logical sense that the start of humanity came from a magical rib bone? Talking snakes? Dinosaurs in a magic garden? How much contradiction do people have to hear before they start to think on their own? Noahs ark, Adam and Eve, Jonah and the whale...all completely fictional and 100% implausible. A giant ham sandwhich creating the universe makes just as much sense as these bible stories...Science is stacking the evidence against religion moreso each day...There's an elephant sitting on the couch...Am I the only person who notices it!? :lol: Honestly answer these questions, don't be afraid... you won't get hit with a lightning bolt :lol:

I think it does hurt to believe in god. There is only ONE life. It's not a trivial thing, there are no second chances if you're "good" in gods eyes. We have but a short time on this planet and it should be cherished. and unfortunately, you are right...There is only one certainty in life, we are going to die. It doesn't mean we should be scared and seek comfort from magic or voodoo...We should just accept who we are and what we are. We need to stop lying to ourselves and stop being such cowards. I've got real problems in a real world man. Sorry god, but unless you plan to help me pay the rent this month or keep my family fed...you're not important to me in the slightest. Start filling my deep freeze and we'll talk about getting me back in a pew. :lol:

I enjoy Norse mythology the most. I thoroughlly enjoyed reading about Ragnarok, Odin, Thor etc. Vikings are fucking cool.
You say, Idols cannot protect or harm you? Well...Neither can a god. A god can't do anything...because god doesn't exist.
Yes, the belief of a magic man using his powers poofing everything into existance is farstretched for me...It's not possible for 2 people to create 6 billion. Where did those 2 people come from? Oh yeah, one came from a rib bone. Let me ask you this...
Why do human beings still posses the dormant genes for having gills? Do you know why human beings suffer from frequent cases of nasal/breathing problems and back/knee injuries? We're evolved from a species (ape-like) that walks on 4 limbs. It's written into our genetic code where we came from, people just do not want to hear the truth...If they hear the truth, they might start to think and they might lose their faith. No faith = no heaven.

Trees don't die in the winter, they become dormant. Nothing can die and come back. Not even a mere plant.
Shit I got a pretty big rant going on here so I think I'll stop :lol: Enjoy man, No personal offense intended.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby Shaka Zulu » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:10 am

Don't worry no offense taken. The way I see it; what separates us from every other animal on earth is ambition, the many ups and downs in a preson's life, the pain, the want to succeed, the expectations, hopes and dreams, visions, convictions, belief and so on. I can go on and on, but the point is, in no way can human being be compared to any other animal on planet earth. Yes animals have emotions similar to humans (happiness, sadness, affection) but don't possess any of the traits above. They are literally only survivng. And about humans having hereditary genes for gills, well my religion doesn't necessarily rule it out. In chapter 21 there is a verse that states " do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth was one unit of creation, then we clove them asunder; and we made every living thing from water". Not only does it agree with science that every living organism needs water for existence, but also agrees with science about the big bang on how everything in the universe was conjoined and then BOOM( although there is no noise in space so there was no noise at all). That's a bold statement 1400 years ago.

What I'm trying to get at is if everything was created in water, and basically all animals consist of the same earthly components (carbon, iron, water, etc.) Then it wouldn't be surprising that we would have similar genes as other species. Also on how you said you disagree on mankind not starting from one person and how could only 2 people begin all this. Well , people aren't miraculously having babies, it takes two and it took two to create each of those two. Before I start getting confusing, say we could rewind time, population would be getting smaller and smaller and smaller. You can kind of compare to a single drop of water in to a rock, it branches out and out but it all started from that one drop. This is simple physiques. You will have kids, they will have kids and the branches spread more and more but it started with you and you are on the end of a different branch and so on and so on. See now I'm getting confusing but you get my point. Also, yeah it is hard to belive Eve came from Adams rib but, the way I see it,females are our perfect opposite; we are one in the same, one can't exist without the other and that goes for all species( except organisms that reproduse asexually). Its hard for me to try and explain but basically, I can see that plausible just for the simple fact that we can only impregnate our kind because we were created as pairs and there are no other options for us. Its really hard to try and explain though.

Another thing, point out for me one contradiction in the Quran. There are numerous scientific facts in there that nobody could have known over 1400 years ago. There are references in the Quran such as the ones above, about how the two oceans meet but do not mix( salt and sea water), how mountains have pegs in the ground as deep as they are tall, and other scientific facts. But the most fascinating to me is the embryological facts. The Quran breaks down the embryologic stages perfectly and of coure were only discovered not to long ago with the help of microscopes. Professor Kieth Moore was widely recognized for his studies in embryology and has written texts that were used in many schools on the subject. He was asked to interpret these verses in the Quran that refered to emryology. Not only was he amzed at what he found, he revised his book and became muslim. There are many stories like these but I'm not going to drag this on but I hope that you look into that. But again please point out these contradictions. As a matter of fact in the Quran Allah says" If this(Quran) had been from anyone other than Me you would find in it many contradictions". We are encouraged to confirm what we are taught or told by " those endued with knowledge" on the matter.

Also, about suicide bombers and the like. These people are either brain washed, gullible individuals who are persuaded to do these acts "in the name of God" by evil cowards or people who have a personal vendetta towards Jews for various reason. In no way should this be attributed to religion because Islam doesn't promote suicide or the killing of innocent. The word Jihad is often mis interpreted. It means to defend the religion either by war, if forced by persecution, or by simply educating people with words. Jihad is to defend the religion if attacked, if by force defend by force, if by words defend by words. An entire faith shouldn't be judged from the actions of radicals who do these things. But its all word propaganda used in the media to undermine Islam, but that's not something I'll get into right now. All I'm saying is, people shouldn't judge what they don't understand.

I would like to end this by saying, in my opinion, there are too many signs of God to neglect that He exists. The structure and creation of the universe, the earth, even the beauty of a woman is just too perfect to not be from a Higher Wisdom. There has to be more to our existence than to just eat, sleep, shit, die and poof that's it.and believe me when I say, no one taught me what I know or speak of; these are my beliefs and philosophies. This is where my journey has taken me so far and I'm stil a'rollin. And until a scientist is able to create a serm drop from nothing, make it capable of growing into a full grown human being with all its attributes and a lifespan, well I can't see any better explanation. Until next time, peace.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby NoneSoVile » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:05 pm

Gotta love this thread, funny how noone else cared to join in? :lol:

Interesting points again, and yes the Quran did have some very surprisingly accurate information...but, unlike the bible which speaks in plain words and is proven wrong constantly, the Quran is no different...but it is written more eloquently/vaguely, which leaves room for misinterpretation, and that's even more frightening..I can list one of several disagreements I have with the Quran.
I don't appreciate the ability for a husband to beat the shit out of his wife. To quote the Quran 4:34 "God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient...send them to beds apart and beat them..."
Another thing I don't appreciate about the Quran, if I said these things in certain countries, I would get murdered on the spot. I'm not accusing anyone of being violent, I'm merely point out that these holy books...Are filled with judgement, fear, hate, guilt and lots more nasty shit

People can try to sugar coat it and cherry pick from their prefered holy book...but the fact of the matter remains. It's also 100% impossible for 2 people to pro-create the world. It's been scientifically proven, no questions about it. Do you know what would happen if a son impregnated his mother? A father impregnating his daughter? It's just not even remotely plausible for the human race to originate from a single bloodline.

Now, to talk about the suicide bombings, holy wars, etc. They ARE religious. Just because you don't want them to be, doesn't make it so. You're right, an entire faith should not be judged by a few maniacs...Just like any other group of people...unfortunately the few maniacs are more like millions of blind, scared, brainwashed maniacs. From the christians in america who hate 'fags' to the islamic militants blowing up buses to the african tribes mutilating womens genitiles...What's the difference? Everything 'good' religion does, get's completely outweighed by all the 'bad'.

"Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime. Give a man religion, he'll starve to death praying for a fish."

I also cannot see any signs of god in this world...I think there are logical explanations for every phenomena, there is no need to fit "god" in things we don't quite understand yet. Science has proven religion wrong THOUSANDS of time, religion has NEVER proven ANY of their points... If it's real, there's proof. If there's not a single shred of evidence, it's not real. Do you believe in the flying spaghetti monster floating in space? If I had an old book, that said The Spaghetti Monster created the world. Would you believe it? I spoke to the spaghetti monster!!...On a mountain (Noone was around, sound familiar?) If I told you since you were a child it was real...Would you believe it? Just like Santa and the Easter Bunny, we believe what we're told to believe. The human brain works this way. I don't view the world as such a perfect place...The only reason we're told "Oh, you're starving to death? Its just god testing your faith." is so people don't get together and kill the rich people on the other side of town. Unfortunately, we're just a highly evolved upright walking mammal, with a brain too big for our own good. :lol:
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby ShadowMoses42 » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:41 pm

NoneSoVile wrote:Gotta love this thread, funny how noone else cared to join in? :lol:

Interesting points again, and yes the Quran did have some very surprisingly accurate information...but, unlike the bible which speaks in plain words and is proven wrong constantly, the Quran is no different...but it is written more eloquently/vaguely, which leaves room for misinterpretation, and that's even more frightening..I can list one of several disagreements I have with the Quran.
I don't appreciate the ability for a husband to beat the shit out of his wife. To quote the Quran 4:34 "God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient...send them to beds apart and beat them..."
Another thing I don't appreciate about the Quran, if I said these things in certain countries, I would get murdered on the spot. I'm not accusing anyone of being violent, I'm merely point out that these holy books...Are filled with judgement, fear, hate, guilt and lots more nasty shit

People can try to sugar coat it and cherry pick from their prefered holy book...but the fact of the matter remains. It's also 100% impossible for 2 people to pro-create the world. It's been scientifically proven, no questions about it. Do you know what would happen if a son impregnated his mother? A father impregnating his daughter? It's just not even remotely plausible for the human race to originate from a single bloodline.

Now, to talk about the suicide bombings, holy wars, etc. They ARE religious. Just because you don't want them to be, doesn't make it so. You're right, an entire faith should not be judged by a few maniacs...Just like any other group of people...unfortunately the few maniacs are more like millions of blind, scared, brainwashed maniacs. From the christians in america who hate 'fags' to the islamic militants blowing up buses to the african tribes mutilating womens genitiles...What's the difference? Everything 'good' religion does, get's completely outweighed by all the 'bad'.

"Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime. Give a man religion, he'll starve to death praying for a fish."

I also cannot see any signs of god in this world...I think there are logical explanations for every phenomena, there is no need to fit "god" in things we don't quite understand yet. Science has proven religion wrong THOUSANDS of time, religion has NEVER proven ANY of their points... If it's real, there's proof. If there's not a single shred of evidence, it's not real. Do you believe in the flying spaghetti monster floating in space? If I had an old book, that said The Spaghetti Monster created the world. Would you believe it? I spoke to the spaghetti monster!!...On a mountain (Noone was around, sound familiar?) If I told you since you were a child it was real...Would you believe it? Just like Santa and the Easter Bunny, we believe what we're told to believe. The human brain works this way. I don't view the world as such a perfect place...The only reason we're told "Oh, you're starving to death? Its just god testing your faith." is so people don't get together and kill the rich people on the other side of town. Unfortunately, we're just a highly evolved upright walking mammal, with a brain too big for our own good. :lol:


this post is my bible...
We will always remember you for your undeniable logic in every single instance ever; there is now an empty void in all of our hearts that can never again be filled, unless it is with your unequivocal passion and love
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby thegroovemonkey » Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:23 pm

NoneSoVile, you are the man. What a great post. I don't agree with your analogy about a spaghetti monster though. How ridiculous is that? Now if it's a Flying Spaghetti Monster, rAmen.

I also find it interesting that Christians interpret the old testament. Luis Black once said that Christians interpreting the old testament are usually wrong. But it's not their fault becuase it's not their book.

I would also like to point out that when three religions that are praying to the same god can't even agree on the fundamentals of his message and will, then they are all most likely wrong.

I grew up with a Jewish mom and a Catholic dad. Neither were very religious but I have family on both sides who are. I went to both church and temple as a child and being exposed to two different religions lets you see things a lot differently. When one group of people tells you that the savior has already come, while the other half says they are still waiting, you look at them both and have to laugh. For as long as I can remember I never had any real faith in God. By the time I was between 10 and 12, I had renounced all religion.

Religion works by parents indoctrinating their children. Because these children are told by trusted individuals that their religion is true, they believe it. The myths are then perpetuated by society and the cycle continues into the next generation. Combine that with the tactics used by major religions over the centuries to gain support and it is easy to see how we got to where we are.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby Shaka Zulu » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:34 pm

Good argument None. Let's see, where do I begin? I'll start with holy war. What was its origin? What's thr basis for it? What's the meaning behind? To my understanding, people see this as a way for religious people to go and kill everyone that doesn't follow or comply with their religion for no reason at all. How does it start? Did you know the Prophet Mohammad and the first of his followers were persecuted, tortured, and killed for their beliefs for 12 years before they were commanded to fight back by God. He was 40 years old when he first claimed to receive revelatins of God; these revelations continued for 23 years until his death in 632A.D. he died when he was 63. All these revelations were recorded during his lifetime and put into book form after his death. It was revealed to him in his native languaga(Arabic) and is still in that form. You can try to translate it into other languages, but its not the same as the original form it was revealed. And how you said its more "eloquently written than the Bible, which leaves room for misinterpretation". Well for one, if there was a message sent down by God, don't you think it would have a beautiful ring to it. During Mohammad's time and even now, they compared the Quran to poetry because of how it sounds when its recited. Around that time the Arabic language was flourishing in terms of beautiful poetry. But the thing is, in poetry, people sacrifice words with stronger meanings with other words that would rhyme better. The Quran not only sounds quite like poetry, but the meaning behind these words, in the Arabic form, is of beauty to take heed of. Mankind is challenged to produce a something similar to it. And not ina sense to make something similar in terms of only book form, but everything that went along with it such as the obstacles a message like this must face. Persecution, exile, your own family disowning you, constant attempt to kill you and your message, and, in this case, people constantly trying to find contradictions from you. Don't you think it would be hard to keep a lie going for 23 years. don't you find it kind of impossible to start a lie at the age of 40, being illiterate(Mohammad was illiterate) , in the middle of the desert, 1400 years ago, and somehow keep this "lie" going for 23 years and convince people to believe you and have 100 thousand followers by the time you die, and 1400 years later have about 1 billion or so followers, all from a lie. Surely if it was a lie, this would have been destroyed within these 1400 years. Find me one person that is as revered as Prophet Mohammad and mentioned each and every day that has had an impact as great as him and his message. It is nearly impossible for a "liar" to accomplish this.

And about " leaving room for misinterpretaion, come on man, seriously how far can you actually stretch the meaning of something into meaning something else. We can easily use our reasoning to refute these kind of things. I can't try to convince you that Pepsi is water, your reasoning would refute this. Also, you agree about the accurate scientific information in the Quran, therefor, you tell me how he could've accurately guessed these things. Its impossible; especially back then to know these things without Divine wisdom being related to you. So please tell me how he guessed these things. Now, about the "beating women" issue, I am not gonna try and defend that and say"oh this is why we should do this". I was also puzzled about this when I read it and believe me, I don't beat my wife. I truly don't understand this concept and isn't something many of us do. There are plenty of verses in chapter 4 that command us to be good to our women, treat them with respect and mercy. I don't want to sound sexist when I say this but, I think you and I can agree that men are somewhat one notch above women, not in equality, but responsibilities; providing for the family, protecting them, and what not. Man is the dominant of the two. Yes there are women that do a man's work but look at the majority; now and since the beginning of time. Again, this verse stumps me as well and I haven't used that to justify hitting my wife, which I don't. This doesn't stop me from disproving the book as a whole, and I don't believe in trying to explain something I don't understand.

Back to "holy war". In the past, majority, if not all of these wars were istigated by the people opposed to the religion, not the people who follow the religion. Every time God delivered His message, it divided the people; believers, non-believers. The prophets wanted to follow their religion peacefully and preach it to people who wanted to listen. They never forced their faith onto the people. But eventually the disbelievers would pkot against them because it doesn't conform to their beliefs. A lot of these people would be the prophet's own family who are fighting against them. Did you know Mohammad was known as Al Amin(the trustworthy) before he attained prophethood. The same people who called him this automatically called him a liar when he began to preach about Islam. Just like Jesus said" I come not with peace but the sword to make anomosity between father and son, mother and daughter. " its sad that religion can do these kinds of things but it is that powerful. People only want to believe what their fathers believe, some cancel out God all together, some people accept to believe in what they've learned, and some people learn to not believe in God. You cannot judge nor blame any of these people. Back then people were shown signs of God to believe in Him, and at times were things they told the prophets what they wanted to see in order to believe. And they still didn't believe!!! So how can you expect people to believe now with only books. Very hard. I do know that we'll be judged less severely than those who were shown the miracles of God and I find that reasonable and I'm sure you do to. But again it takes faith which is so, so, so blind.

Also, about not seeing signs of God and how every phenomena can be explained. Well I agree, science can explain just about, not every, phenomena. Why? Well, how are thay able to do this? They rely on the Laws of Nature that have been set. God doesn't make things just "appear" but has set these laws which everything has to follow. Everything has to go through its natural process ordained by the Laws of Nature. All He says is for it to " Be and it becomes". Think of how long Earth has been around. Our provisions and necessaties don't mysteriously drop from the sky, the earth sustains itself ordained by these laws. Let me see scientists create something that does this without any help. Yes they are able to explain these things, but if its simple enough to understand, surely they'll be able to create the like thereof. They know what the human body consists of and can probably make a human like being, with all its organs, and let's see them bring it to life. As a matter of fact, how about something as simple and as small as a seed for a tree. What is the element that's missing? The breath of life; the soul. Like I said, without it we are LITERALLY earthly components. Nothing more. There are so many signs of God in my eyes that I don't know where to start, but this falls in the category of perception. Scientists depend on these laws to help them learn and explain these phenomena, but to create something like it from nothing is not possisble. When they are able to do it, then I will really question my faith.

Lastly, Groovemonkey brougt up a good point about Jesus. He was Jew, or rather from the Children of Isreal. He came to follow the Torah and to teach it. I believe he said," I come not to destroy the Law, I come to fulfill". That being said, where does the concept of Christianity come from. If he followd the Torah, why don't they? There were many gospel that were ommitted from the Bible, who has the right to break its entirety down to 4 gospels, which much of it was written way after Jesus. Could it be they were trying to hide something? Also, not only has it been translated out of its original language( ancient Hebrew and Aramaic) but much of the original scriptures were lost during the Babylonian era. In the Old Testament, God tells Moses " I am your God, I am one..."; so how can The New Testament come and claim Trinity. I'm not saying there isn't truth in these books, but even many Christians can admit the contradictions in them. Another thing, Jesus said" I have been sent to the lost sheep of Isreal". Like all the prophets before him, they were sent to THEIR people to convey the message. Mohammad was sent to all of mankind all the way to the Day of Judgement an was the seal of the messangers of God. That is why he is held in such high honor. Ill stop there and save this debate for another time because I know I'm gonna catch heat for this.

I'd like to end with this; it is said prophets received revelation through dreams. Its not like they looked to the sky and pretended to talk to God. That being said, and this is just my opinion, could it be that the pineal gland and the DMT it produces be a gateway to the spiritual world. Its said that DMT is produced by your brain when you sleep and near death experiences. We can't ask dead people what happens after that moment because they're , well, dead. But people who suvived NDE claim to have gone through this miraculous events. Again, could it be a gateway to "the other side". Not even science can really explain this phenomena fully. Yes we have crazy and meaningless dreams, but we also have some very interesting and spiritual ones also. The revelations the prophets received were proven true in their life times pertaining their current events that would happen and some in our times. Again this is my take on the situation.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby JJpitty » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:07 pm

NoneSoVile wrote:People can try to sugar coat it and cherry pick from their prefered holy book...but the fact of the matter remains. It's also 100% impossible for 2 people to pro-create the world. It's been scientifically proven, no questions about it. Do you know what would happen if a son impregnated his mother? A father impregnating his daughter? It's just not even remotely plausible for the human race to originate from a single bloodline.


I am actually curious. Besides the aspect of time, why would this not be possible? I am not saying I believe it, but I am curious as to the justification.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby PBells » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:19 pm

After so long, the kids would be too inbred to survive very well. Plus then we have to think about how one combination of genes can spontaneously diversify itself....

thegroovemonkey wrote:Religion works by parents indoctrinating their children. Because these children are told by trusted individuals that their religion is true, they believe it. The myths are then perpetuated by society and the cycle continues into the next generation. Combine that with the tactics used by major religions over the centuries to gain support and it is easy to see how we got to where we are.


Completely agreed. I used to be a Christian. Why? Because my parents were Christians. Why were they Christians? Because they're parents were Christians, and so on and so forth. By the time I turned 18, I was too independent for religion and realized that I was just copying my family.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby JJpitty » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:53 pm

PsychoBells wrote:After so long, the kids would be too inbred to survive very well. Plus then we have to think about how one combination of genes can spontaneously diversify itself....

thegroovemonkey wrote:Religion works by parents indoctrinating their children. Because these children are told by trusted individuals that their religion is true, they believe it. The myths are then perpetuated by society and the cycle continues into the next generation. Combine that with the tactics used by major religions over the centuries to gain support and it is easy to see how we got to where we are.


Completely agreed. I used to be a Christian. Why? Because my parents were Christians. Why were they Christians? Because they're parents were Christians, and so on and so forth. By the time I turned 18, I was too independent for religion and realized that I was just copying my family.


The genomes of organisms have had no trouble diversifying themselves over time through random mutation and natural selection. That is what evolution is all about. Not saying this occurred, I am just saying it is not impossible.

Also, about the inbred comment. The reason why inbreeding has such detrimental effects on populations in the increased prevalence of recessive disease. It is not because two genetically similar organisms cannot mate. The other detrimental aspect is that the gene pool will be quite restricted, making all individuals in a population susceptible to the same diseases, which then increases the likelihood a single epidemic could eliminate an entire population.

Plenty of inbred things survive for a long time. Livestock, research mice and rats, the list goes on. Given enough time, this is entirely possible. Perhaps not plausible, but possible.

I was only being playful because I think people really need to be careful when they say "science has proven" something. Often times when people say that, especially in the context of religion, science has not. Taking all the evidence, obviously humans did not come from a single pair, but science has not proven that a population propagated initially with a single breeding pair cannot survive. In fact, it is quite the opposite.

Edited for clarity
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby Shaka Zulu » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:40 pm

You present a good point JJ. Welcome to the debate. The fact of the matter is, it is very possible that the entire human race, and all other species, began with a single pair. I seriously don't see how it could have happened any other way. Sadly, God did not give us details about these things. The way I look at it, no matter what race you are, you can still mate with different races because our anatomy is the same regardless of race. That being said, is it possible for one species to mate and reproduse with a different species. As grotesque as that sounds, I don't think that is possible. Each species for its own. I am curious as to the "scientific proof" that this didn't occur.

Also, PhycoBells, I totally agree tha majority of people only follow what they were taught. But any person with reasoning and a somewhat average intellect has the power to search for what else is out there. Some people are literally brainwashed, some people choose to just stick with their faith and don't care to learn anything else. I for one didn't let this deter me from going out to search for truth because I had so many questions. We all have extraordinary capabilities as far as our thinking and understanding goes, so why not use that and see where it takes us.
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Re: Official Religion Thread

Postby JJpitty » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:58 pm

Shaka, I think you may have missed my point. I am not saying I think humans could have evolved from a single pair. Given the evidence we have, and our knowledge about evolution, I think it is safe to assume we did not. I am just pointing out that this is not theoretically impossible as some comments were implying that it would be impossible.
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