Krim wrote:TCC, I know judo throws usually come from the clinch, but they do also use double and sinhle leg shots and know how to sprawl. When I said judo is good for countering wrestling I meant in a scenerio where you stuff the shot and use that opportunity to clinch up. That's what I usually see happening at least.
irishmike357, I agree that together they make a great combination. In my school we put a lot of emphasis on incorporating wrestling drills into the class (both my instructors were werstlers at one point). A guy with a strong background in both could use his wrestling to dictate where he wants the fight to take place. Should he ever encounter a better or stronger wrestler, he could fall back to his judo to still keep the edge.
Krim wrote:We mix in free style wrestling. Greco roman definately translates well into judo. That is actually my strongest wrestling point. I have a good sprawl, but my shots are way telegraphed.
Stuffing a good wrestler's takedown is definately tough. We drill stuff like that a lot on our no gi training days because a lot of our guys like to comepete in Naga and grappler's quest.
LordDucon wrote:I agree Judo and Wrestling form a good combo. But i think Judo is generaly a more effective approach to grappling, because it uses less energy. Then the counterpart is that wrestling gets you better conditionned because of all the work you get in the training...
Wrestling and judo rely on different principles, and both are effective and are to be mastered in a fight. Wrestling is more about simple fail-safe mechanics, position control, and less about timing. Judo is all about breaking balance and timing, and in the long run, a good judoka will use his energy more efficiently, get less fatigued, and gain control of the wrestler. But naive judokas do tend to give their backs. I think most of the weaknesses of judoka come from the way they train : with a keikogi, and for an olympic sport which is heavily regulated, resulting in unrealistic combat scenarios. I think judo competitions should get tend towards early kodokan, with all the now illegal locks and chokes made legal (like in BJJ), and negate the "ippon = falling flat on your back". Judo throws are gentle, as judo is the "gentle way". So throwing a guy with a judo throw certainly doesn't mean the fight is over, but it means you can get a positionning advantage on the ground, where you can look for submissioning of striking.
Also wrestling throws can be more brutal (like supplexes) and definitely more "street effective". One has to consider though that Kano specifically eliminated the most dangerous throws of traditional Jiu-jitsu in order to make randori safer. For example, throwing someone on his belly would be very effective in a real fight, but also very dangerous when training. Given that randori is what makes a martial artist effective with his techniques, that poses a problem...
LordDucon wrote:Sure if you slam someone on hard concrete, it's gonna hurt. But if just look at Parysian's or Akiyama's fights in MMA you will see that Ippon doesn't mean the fight is over. Also Judo IS a gentle art. I've practised a bit of Aikido and been thrown around with wrestling moves : those can really hurt, and training becomes a real pain. Kano was a physical educater as much as a martial artist ; he wanted Judo to be an enjoyable experience, and thus eliminated the most dangerous moves of traditional japanese Jiu-jitsu. Then some other throwing techniques were also prohibited from sport judo because of injuries...
I think the reason why Ippon is scored that way in Judo is because it demontrates control of the opponent. A strong emphasis was put on Nage-waza (throwing techniques) by Kano eversince the split from Kosen judo specialists : the ground specialists were dominating the competitions, and Kano wisely wanted to maintain and foster the existence of stand-up specialists. He succeeded, but the regulations established put in my opinion an overemphasis on the throwing techniques, and now most judokas (training for sport judo) are worthless on the ground.
With a reformed, more balanced scoring system and referreing, there's no reason why we couldn't achieve a more realistic combat paradigm. There's no reason why there should be separate BJJ and Judo comps : they're two sides of the same art, it all came from the Kodokan, and together they form a higly effective fighting system.
LordDucon wrote:I do know a bit in Judo, I train in it. I also started to train in BJJ at my fight club. I've been thrown around quite a bit, doesn't hurt if you know how to take a fall, but it does get annoying.
As for Judo not being BJJ, you are dead wrong my friend. The Gracies invented nothing, they were thaught Judo ne-waza by Mitsuyo Maeda, a student of Kano at the Kodokan. Since the split, the ground specialists are known to practise Kosen judo in Japan. BJJ is just a school of Judo specialised in ne-waza, or ground fighting.
Nage-waza and ne-waza go hand in hand : they're part of the same fighting system. Look it up.