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Judo and wrestling

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Judo and wrestling

Postby Krim » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:55 am

I recently took up judo. A lot of wrestlers joined around the time that I did. I feel like Judo is a good counter to wrestling. While wrestling is great at dictating where a fight takes place, I feel like Judo is great when facing wrestlers. It seems almost natural the way judoka use the energy of the wrestlers to reverse their takedowns. It could be used to keep the fight standing or to put the wrestler on his back. I still believe that wrestling is a more important part of MMA than judo is, but a good judoka can negate that wrestler's advantage. What are your thoughts?
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby ThirdCoastCombat » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:15 am

as a wrestler ive always felt i had the upper hand when grappling judoka's simply due to the fact that i could shoot for legs from outside of their range, while since we were without a gi that had to look to close the distance and clinch
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby irishmike357 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:39 pm

Without the GI the wrestlers have the edge, but the Judoka can still be effective if his timing is good enough. With the GI though I feel the Judoka has a huge advantage, once they grip up anyway. My thing about wrestlers is that once their back is on the mat they make mistakes. Same thing if they are in your guard. The triangle is my favorite move and I always catch wrestlers with it because they leave their heads in there while trying to come around my legs.

I do believe that wrestling and judo make a great combo though. IMO a wrestling take down is more effective on a guy moving backward and Judo is more effective when he comes at you. I am at the point with a few Judo throws that if my opponent puts pressure on me I will get the throw, now I have to incorporate a TD/Throw to use while they more backward.
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby Krim » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:31 pm

TCC, I know judo throws usually come from the clinch, but they do also use double and sinhle leg shots and know how to sprawl. When I said judo is good for countering wrestling I meant in a scenerio where you stuff the shot and use that opportunity to clinch up. That's what I usually see happening at least.

irishmike357, I agree that together they make a great combination. In my school we put a lot of emphasis on incorporating wrestling drills into the class (both my instructors were werstlers at one point). A guy with a strong background in both could use his wrestling to dictate where he wants the fight to take place. Should he ever encounter a better or stronger wrestler, he could fall back to his judo to still keep the edge.
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby irishmike357 » Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:14 am

What type of wrestling do you use Krim? We also do alot of wrestling type drills and moves, but it is almost all college style. I would love to try some greco roman. When I do Judo I love to get on the inside (bearhug, over/under ect.) and think that doing some greco roman would help me out a ton there.
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby ThirdCoastCombat » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:27 am

Krim wrote:TCC, I know judo throws usually come from the clinch, but they do also use double and sinhle leg shots and know how to sprawl. When I said judo is good for countering wrestling I meant in a scenerio where you stuff the shot and use that opportunity to clinch up. That's what I usually see happening at least.

irishmike357, I agree that together they make a great combination. In my school we put a lot of emphasis on incorporating wrestling drills into the class (both my instructors were werstlers at one point). A guy with a strong background in both could use his wrestling to dictate where he wants the fight to take place. Should he ever encounter a better or stronger wrestler, he could fall back to his judo to still keep the edge.

gotcha. if a judoka can stuff the shot it is definitely a great opportunity for them to cinch up where i would give them the advantage. stopping the shot of a good wrestler is the hard part though
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby Krim » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:53 am

We mix in free style wrestling. Greco roman definately translates well into judo. That is actually my strongest wrestling point. I have a good sprawl, but my shots are way telegraphed.
Stuffing a good wrestler's takedown is definately tough. We drill stuff like that a lot on our no gi training days because a lot of our guys like to comepete in Naga and grappler's quest.
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby ThirdCoastCombat » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:20 am

Krim wrote:We mix in free style wrestling. Greco roman definately translates well into judo. That is actually my strongest wrestling point. I have a good sprawl, but my shots are way telegraphed.
Stuffing a good wrestler's takedown is definately tough. We drill stuff like that a lot on our no gi training days because a lot of our guys like to comepete in Naga and grappler's quest.

a good greco guy would definitely be a force to be reckoned with in judo
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby JiuJitsu07 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:58 am

I think they both have their good things. What i think wrestling had the upper hand is the conditioning and how tough they become.
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby LordDucon » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:56 pm

I agree Judo and Wrestling form a good combo. But i think Judo is generaly a more effective approach to grappling, because it uses less energy. Then the counterpart is that wrestling gets you better conditionned because of all the work you get in the training...
Wrestling and judo rely on different principles, and both are effective and are to be mastered in a fight. Wrestling is more about simple fail-safe mechanics, position control, and less about timing. Judo is all about breaking balance and timing, and in the long run, a good judoka will use his energy more efficiently, get less fatigued, and gain control of the wrestler. But naive judokas do tend to give their backs. I think most of the weaknesses of judoka come from the way they train : with a keikogi, and for an olympic sport which is heavily regulated, resulting in unrealistic combat scenarios. I think judo competitions should get tend towards early kodokan, with all the now illegal locks and chokes made legal (like in BJJ), and negate the "ippon = falling flat on your back". Judo throws are gentle, as judo is the "gentle way". So throwing a guy with a judo throw certainly doesn't mean the fight is over, but it means you can get a positionning advantage on the ground, where you can look for submissioning of striking.
Also wrestling throws can be more brutal (like supplexes) and definitely more "street effective". One has to consider though that Kano specifically eliminated the most dangerous throws of traditional Jiu-jitsu in order to make randori safer. For example, throwing someone on his belly would be very effective in a real fight, but also very dangerous when training. Given that randori is what makes a martial artist effective with his techniques, that poses a problem...
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby irishmike357 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:51 am

LordDucon wrote:I agree Judo and Wrestling form a good combo. But i think Judo is generaly a more effective approach to grappling, because it uses less energy. Then the counterpart is that wrestling gets you better conditionned because of all the work you get in the training...
Wrestling and judo rely on different principles, and both are effective and are to be mastered in a fight. Wrestling is more about simple fail-safe mechanics, position control, and less about timing. Judo is all about breaking balance and timing, and in the long run, a good judoka will use his energy more efficiently, get less fatigued, and gain control of the wrestler. But naive judokas do tend to give their backs. I think most of the weaknesses of judoka come from the way they train : with a keikogi, and for an olympic sport which is heavily regulated, resulting in unrealistic combat scenarios. I think judo competitions should get tend towards early kodokan, with all the now illegal locks and chokes made legal (like in BJJ), and negate the "ippon = falling flat on your back". Judo throws are gentle, as judo is the "gentle way". So throwing a guy with a judo throw certainly doesn't mean the fight is over, but it means you can get a positionning advantage on the ground, where you can look for submissioning of striking.
Also wrestling throws can be more brutal (like supplexes) and definitely more "street effective". One has to consider though that Kano specifically eliminated the most dangerous throws of traditional Jiu-jitsu in order to make randori safer. For example, throwing someone on his belly would be very effective in a real fight, but also very dangerous when training. Given that randori is what makes a martial artist effective with his techniques, that poses a problem...

Nice post, I just have a few spots I disagree with.

If they made all the locks legal and did away with the Ippon then it would be a BJJ comp, not a Judo comp.

The second is Judo being the "gentle way". It is not called that because the throws don't hurt, it's called that because you don't meet force with force, you use their force against them. They use the Ippon in Judo because if a throw that wins you Ippon was used on the street the person would be out of the fight.

I agree though that the principles are very different. Wreslters seem to use takedowns that rely on power/speed/explosivness more than timing, and Judo uses more timing based takedowns. Both require the same attributes (power, timing, speed explosiveness) but in a different ratio.
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby LordDucon » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:52 am

Sure if you slam someone on hard concrete, it's gonna hurt. But if just look at Parysian's or Akiyama's fights in MMA you will see that Ippon doesn't mean the fight is over. Also Judo IS a gentle art. I've practised a bit of Aikido and been thrown around with wrestling moves : those can really hurt, and training becomes a real pain. Kano was a physical educater as much as a martial artist ; he wanted Judo to be an enjoyable experience, and thus eliminated the most dangerous moves of traditional japanese Jiu-jitsu. Then some other throwing techniques were also prohibited from sport judo because of injuries...
I think the reason why Ippon is scored that way in Judo is because it demontrates control of the opponent. A strong emphasis was put on Nage-waza (throwing techniques) by Kano eversince the split from Kosen judo specialists : the ground specialists were dominating the competitions, and Kano wisely wanted to maintain and foster the existence of stand-up specialists. He succeeded, but the regulations established put in my opinion an overemphasis on the throwing techniques, and now most judokas (training for sport judo) are worthless on the ground.
With a reformed, more balanced scoring system and referreing, there's no reason why we couldn't achieve a more realistic combat paradigm. There's no reason why there should be separate BJJ and Judo comps : they're two sides of the same art, it all came from the Kodokan, and together they form a higly effective fighting system.
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby irishmike357 » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:37 pm

LordDucon wrote:Sure if you slam someone on hard concrete, it's gonna hurt. But if just look at Parysian's or Akiyama's fights in MMA you will see that Ippon doesn't mean the fight is over. Also Judo IS a gentle art. I've practised a bit of Aikido and been thrown around with wrestling moves : those can really hurt, and training becomes a real pain. Kano was a physical educater as much as a martial artist ; he wanted Judo to be an enjoyable experience, and thus eliminated the most dangerous moves of traditional japanese Jiu-jitsu. Then some other throwing techniques were also prohibited from sport judo because of injuries...
I think the reason why Ippon is scored that way in Judo is because it demontrates control of the opponent. A strong emphasis was put on Nage-waza (throwing techniques) by Kano eversince the split from Kosen judo specialists : the ground specialists were dominating the competitions, and Kano wisely wanted to maintain and foster the existence of stand-up specialists. He succeeded, but the regulations established put in my opinion an overemphasis on the throwing techniques, and now most judokas (training for sport judo) are worthless on the ground.
With a reformed, more balanced scoring system and referreing, there's no reason why we couldn't achieve a more realistic combat paradigm. There's no reason why there should be separate BJJ and Judo comps : they're two sides of the same art, it all came from the Kodokan, and together they form a higly effective fighting system.

I am sure if Karo or Akiyama were on cement when they threw some one on their head the fight would be over :lol: As for being gentle. Come on down and practice some Judo and be some ones Uke for a half hour...it sucks being thrown that much, even when they are not putting all their might into it.

Anyway, you seem to know alot about Judo (even if you do assume somethings), but also you seem to just want it to be BJJ. It's not though. You like the BJJ rules so you should do that, not try to change Judo into BJJ. Karate and TKD are similar sports, but they should not be made into one sport. Football and Rugby too.

Anyway, the emphasis in Judo is on throws, that is the art. If you want more ground fighting do BJJ, thats why the Gracies created it.
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby LordDucon » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:14 am

I do know a bit in Judo, I train in it. I also started to train in BJJ at my fight club. I've been thrown around quite a bit, doesn't hurt if you know how to take a fall, but it does get annoying.
As for Judo not being BJJ, you are dead wrong my friend. The Gracies invented nothing, they were thaught Judo ne-waza by Mitsuyo Maeda, a student of Kano at the Kodokan. Since the split, the ground specialists are known to practise Kosen judo in Japan. BJJ is just a school of Judo specialised in ne-waza, or ground fighting.
Nage-waza and ne-waza go hand in hand : they're part of the same fighting system. Look it up.
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Re: Judo and wrestling

Postby irishmike357 » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:31 pm

LordDucon wrote:I do know a bit in Judo, I train in it. I also started to train in BJJ at my fight club. I've been thrown around quite a bit, doesn't hurt if you know how to take a fall, but it does get annoying.
As for Judo not being BJJ, you are dead wrong my friend. The Gracies invented nothing, they were thaught Judo ne-waza by Mitsuyo Maeda, a student of Kano at the Kodokan. Since the split, the ground specialists are known to practise Kosen judo in Japan. BJJ is just a school of Judo specialised in ne-waza, or ground fighting.
Nage-waza and ne-waza go hand in hand : they're part of the same fighting system. Look it up.

I too know the history of BJJ and Judo. My point is not that BJJ is completely seperate from Judo, my point is that a BJJ competition and a Judo competition is completely seperate. If you like rugby you play it, you don't play football and try to convince people to take their pads off.
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