S&C Questions Thread

[MirFan]

MirFan - The routine you posted can be very good for peaking and that plan, or ones like it, have been used by some exceptionally strong people. However, I don't know what they did to build up to the level that they were already at when they worked programs like that. Few people make consistent gains with that as their long-term plan unless they plan in higher-volume phases at times.

Yeah after the 5/4/3/2/1 of deads and overhead pressing, I add in assistance lifts for extra volume, 3x8 or 3x10. Good mornings after deads and seated db press after overhead pressing. We'll see how that goes. I havnt done good mornings in a while but Jim Wendler seems to say good things about it so I'll be back on them.

[Fearless6691]

Lol no one likes lifting because it helps you look nice too? Damn

[irishmike357]

Lol no one likes lifting because it helps you look nice too? Damn

Eh, I am married so as long as I don't turn to complete stuffed shit I am ok

[TheAssassin]

Assassin - 10% bodyfat is NOT something to aim for. That's a common aesthetic goal and its pursuit generally comes as a distraction from proper performance goals unless you are really on top of your shit. Nobody on this board is anywhere near that level of control and understanding. Keep bodyfat under 15-16% at all times, unless you are really trying to be a big, strong tank and have decided to put aside bodyfat considerations entirely for a period. That's something that comes out of the Abercrombie aesthetic - not a focus on performance. You can pass a tape test just fine with considerably higher bodyfat than that, and may well have better performance at 12%+.

Assassin-Fearless - What are you doing talking about playing around with dynamic method and adding extra workdays when you aren't making proper progress with what you already have? You want to bench more often - why not bench two-three days a week on a program that has you training 3-4 times a week?

Irishmike's post wasn't asking about athletic performance goals, it was about how to get a good result on a waist measurement test. I assumed the test worked on a less is more basis. The smaller your waist, the higher your score. If that's the case, then 10% BF would be a good benchmark to aim for, seeing as it's sustainable. If my assumption of the test was wrong, and you only need to have say a 36 inch waist to get the perfect score, then by all means get to the bodyfat level where you'll get the perfect score and no lower. So the goal is in fact as low BF as he can get a perfect score on the test with. Then I said that diet is the most important thing he should work on - which is exactly what you said.

I'm definitely not talking about playing around with the dynamic method. I said that's what the workout he posted looked like. I'm not making progress with what I already have because I've been to a real gym once since April 30th. SS has you training 3 days a week and benching/pressing 5x3 alternating between once and twice a week. I enjoy training more often, which allows me to spend less time in the gym per workout. I also like benching more, both weekly and in individual workouts. What would be the problem in making a routine which would essentially be SS, except for putting off the benching to regular Saturdays and Tuesdays? Would benching on those days affect the recovery of my squat?

10% bodyfat for someone standing 6" tall comes more around 32 inches or less for most people, and the moment I hear anything about aiming for "the level associated with visible abs" being set as a goal, I know there's an overt aesthetic being pushed. The fact that your first instinct was to go for the abs, and that Irish probably has a similar notion in the back of his head, needs to be pointed out. Sorry if I'm aggressive about this, but ever since I directly identified this as a body image issue on par with a female obsession with being thin, I see it in a huge number of discussions - often far less overt than this.

Training more often is something that I also enjoy, and for a long time I preferred shorter workouts. The problem with such a plan, in my experience, is that it facilitates many light workouts and will leave you without the two big workouts a week that most people need to progress. Fortunately, I've picked up some experience on blending big workouts with little ones, and have paid a ton of attention to anybody who teaches this well.

You want to train 5 days a week, and have a gym in your building as I understand it. Therefore, time to and from the gym is minimal, which helps with what I'm proposing. You need to essentially plan out 2-3 big workouts per week, the kind that you can't just bang out every day. These are the real drivers of your gains. Then you can plan shorter workouts in as well. The problem here is 50-50 between recovery and allowing all your workouts to slip down in intensity so that none of them drive your gains.

If I had said, "yo dude, get a chiselled 6-pack to pass the test and get all the bitches," then's there's an "overt aesthetic being pushed." I said that he should get to around that body fat percentage because at that point there's not enough fat on your waist to negatively influence his test.The "level associated with abs," comment was just intended as a small informational side-note and a benchmark. The goal isn't abs, the goal is a smaller waist, which you will reach by getting the BF % needed to have visible abs. And if you have visible abs, you probably have a good enough body fat percentage to do well on a waist measurement test, baring other genetic factors.

I just skipped forward and read the programming section of the book. I won't be making any changes to the routine, outside of dead lifting once a week on Saturday instead of once a week alternating between Friday and Wednesday, which will give me similar or even more recovery time. That was always fun last year, walking in, warming up, lifting something heavy and leaving.

[Acepitbull]

You are prob right Red. Like most guys that train, I am constantly looking at new ideas and programs. I read any and everything I can find that might be decent. My bench isn't going up like I want it to. (One of my strength goal is 400lb bench.) It may be because I'm devoting more time to SOHP now and not as much to BP. Anyway, I was tossing the idea of the 10x3 around. I was not a fan of Wendler's 5/3/1 to start with, but now that he has come out with the 5/3/1 for powerlifter that includes the heavey singles and switches weeks one and two.....I'm going to try it out in the future. I may just switch to it in a month or two.

I know just what you mean with all the reading and excitement for new materials. Luckily, I'm very used to doing at least three whole body workouts per week and I believe in training a variant of any lift worth doing at least twice a week if I want to increase my proficiency. This habit precludes a huge number of routines that use upper-lower splits or the bench-squat-press-dead format, until I decide to try something really new, so not many routines really tempt me.

So have you mostly been a 5-3-1 guy to date? What likes and dislikes have you had with it and what have been your other favorite programs? This could be a good chance to show people how a fairly strong guy like yourself picks between routines and modifies them based on his real experience.

No, I've never tried 5/3/1. When it first came out I didn't like the way it looked. I didn’t think that it was “heavy” enough for me. I think the 5/3/1 for powerlifting that Wendler has now may be good for me. It's a variation of 5/3/1 geared more towards powerlifting. I think that I’m going to move to it and use Dave Tate’s Periodization Bible for assistance work (with some modifications to work on my weaknesses). My philosophy has always been to lift heavy and heavier.

I want a program in which you lift heavy and focus on reps in the 3-6 range for the main lifts. I must have the big compound lifts in any program I do.....SQ, DL, BP, SOHP. I believe in rows and will add them to any program I do. I try to listen to guys that I know have more knowledge about lifting than I do. I don’t over complicate things. I lift heavy and hard, eat right, and rest.

The two programs that I've worked pretty exclusively have been 5x5 with sets across…. heavy as possible that you can perform all 25 reps and 3x3 ascending sets at approximately 75, 85, 92-95ish %. I've always kept bench, back squat, SOHP, DL, BB row/T-bar row, and power cleans at the core of my workouts with both routines. I've had great success with both programs. The 5x5 is a Starr variant that I was put on to by a power lifter that I respect. The 3x3 was the first program I ever worked. It was the preferred program of my high school weightlifting coach.

I've never really tried any other programs. I’ve basically just rotated between these two. (I have varied my assistance work greatly.) I've fooled around on days I didn't feel the best with higher rep stuff, but nothing serious. I’ve also used 5x5 with ascending sets some. I guess I just want to try something new to see if I can make better gains with something else. I would like to have more respectable numbers for my weight. 400+ bench, 500+ squat, 500+ DL, 225+ SOHP are my new goals. I'm not that far off on some of them.

I've had to switch from training 4 days a week to 2 days a week because of my busy schedule. This is likely hurting me, but I don't have much choice. I used to devote one day to bench/row, squat, DL, and SOHP. I’ve gone to a upper/lower split now. I bench, row, and SOHP on Mon. or Tues. and then I DL and Squat on Thurs. or Fri. I get a little cardio in 3-4 days a week. I’m not doing any martial arts, boxing, or kickboxing right now. Cardio usually consists of Airdyne or swimming. I can work the 5/3/1 for power lifters with a two day split and keep the same schedule working. Day 1 Squat, Bench, Row, assistance…….Day 2 DL, Press, assistance. It’s the way Wendler recommends for guys with a busy schedule (with rows added). He also says you can do a two day split by just doing two of the core exercises each week. Week 1: Day 1 Squat, Day 2 Bench…… Week 2: Day 1 DL, Day 2 SOHP…..I just can’t see myself not getting in all 5 of my core lifts each week, so I’ll certainly go with the first option.

[irishmike357]

Acepitbull (or anyone really) is there a 3x3 routine you recommend. Or just get in the core lifts with your 75, 85, 92-95 split 3-4 times a week? I've always been a fan of simple routines like the 5x5 and think the 3x3 sounds great as well.

[Acepitbull]

Acepitbull (or anyone really) is there a 3x3 routine you recommend. Or just get in the core lifts with your 75, 85, 92-95 split 3-4 times a week? I've always been a fan of simple routines like the 5x5 and think the 3x3 sounds great as well.

I like the 5x5 too. However, the 3x3 is also good. It's better for you if you have to consistantly make weight for fights/comps. (I don't have to worry abou that anymore.) You gain more size/mass with the 5x5. The program I learned and that has worked for me is a 3x3 program that includes bench press, back squat, SOHP, DL, BB rows, and power cleans. I've broken up the exercises different ways. When I do a 4 day a week routine I row on bench day. I power clean on SOHP day. I squat one day. I DL one day. Mix it up upper, lower, upper, lower.....for example: Day 1 bench/row, Day 2 squat, Day 3 SOHP/power clean, Day 4 DL. (I also do various assistance work each day.) Warm-up well with sets that work up to your work sets of approx. 75%, 85%, and 92-95% of your max. You will need to take a week to max out on all your lifts so you can calculate your %. (Some 3x3 programs use 70%, 80%, and 90%. I like to go a little heavier.) I usually do not rest long between set 1 75% and set 2 85% (1 min.) but I rest 2-3 minutes between sets 2 and 3 92-95%. If you can only get one rep on your last set that's okay. Wait a few minutes and try again. You will prob perform one rep again. These heavy singles will help your progress. Also, use your assistance lifts to help your progress. For example, work your triceps, chest, and shoulders for help on your bench press. Eventually, you should be able to get all three reps. At this time add 5-10 pounds to the bar for each set (5 for bench, row, and SOHP, 10 for squat, DL, and power clean). I also will do a failure set as a finisher on some of my lifts (squats and bench mainly). For instance, I'll take 135 on the bench and get as many reps as I can until I think I'm going to fail on the next rep, then I stop. After you have worked the program hard for 4 months, take a week off, and then retest your max on each lift. You should see good results. I have in the past. Also, I suggest that you take a week off after the first 6-8 weeks. You will need it.

[red_donn]

If I had said, "yo dude, get a chiselled 6-pack to pass the test and get all the bitches," then's there's an "overt aesthetic being pushed." I said that he should get to around that body fat percentage because at that point there's not enough fat on your waist to negatively influence his test.The "level associated with abs," comment was just intended as a small informational side-note and a benchmark. The goal isn't abs, the goal is a smaller waist, which you will reach by getting the BF % needed to have visible abs. And if you have visible abs, you probably have a good enough body fat percentage to do well on a waist measurement test, baring other genetic factors.

Why set the bodyfat that low? What makes 10% better than 12% besides in an aesthetic sense?

When someone is at 20% bodyfat and just needs to slim down their waist, your first reaction was to say "try and get to a level with abs even though that is dropping your bodyfat to less than half what it currently is." Do you tell someone who hasn't deadlifted 315 yet that the next step is 550? No, of course not.

10% as an initial goal makes no sense, except when considering a fixation on abs. That "tidbit" is the exact reason that the vast majority of the population naturally associates 10% with the basic desirable level of bodyfat.

I just skipped forward and read the programming section of the book. I won't be making any changes to the routine, outside of dead lifting once a week on Saturday instead of once a week alternating between Friday and Wednesday, which will give me similar or even more recovery time. That was always fun last year, walking in, warming up, lifting something heavy and leaving.

So your routine would be M-W-F-Saturday, with just a deadlift session on Saturday? Interesting.

I'm not sure exactly how much you are changing the routine to make the deadlifts fit like that, but you could safely change a routine to benching twice a week, say on Monday and Friday while doing overhead presses on Wednesday. Since so many routines have lifters benching 2-3 times a week this shouldn't present any recovery issues. Just don't expect to rapidly increase proficiency at the overhead press technique, but this sort of plan wouldn't kill your shoulders or anything.

[TheAssassin]

If I had said, "yo dude, get a chiselled 6-pack to pass the test and get all the bitches," then's there's an "overt aesthetic being pushed." I said that he should get to around that body fat percentage because at that point there's not enough fat on your waist to negatively influence his test.The "level associated with abs," comment was just intended as a small informational side-note and a benchmark. The goal isn't abs, the goal is a smaller waist, which you will reach by getting the BF % needed to have visible abs. And if you have visible abs, you probably have a good enough body fat percentage to do well on a waist measurement test, baring other genetic factors.

Why set the bodyfat that low? What makes 10% better than 12% besides in an aesthetic sense?

When someone is at 20% bodyfat and just needs to slim down their waist, your first reaction was to say "try and get to a level with abs even though that is dropping your bodyfat to less than half what it currently is." Do you tell someone who hasn't deadlifted 315 yet that the next step is 550? No, of course not.

10% as an initial goal makes no sense, except when considering a fixation on abs. That "tidbit" is the exact reason that the vast majority of the population naturally associates 10% with the basic desirable level of bodyfat.

I just skipped forward and read the programming section of the book. I won't be making any changes to the routine, outside of dead lifting once a week on Saturday instead of once a week alternating between Friday and Wednesday, which will give me similar or even more recovery time. That was always fun last year, walking in, warming up, lifting something heavy and leaving.

So your routine would be M-W-F-Saturday, with just a deadlift session on Saturday? Interesting.

I'm not sure exactly how much you are changing the routine to make the deadlifts fit like that, but you could safely change a routine to benching twice a week, say on Monday and Friday while doing overhead presses on Wednesday. Since so many routines have lifters benching 2-3 times a week this shouldn't present any recovery issues. Just don't expect to rapidly increase proficiency at the overhead press technique, but this sort of plan wouldn't kill your shoulders or anything.

Because I already said I misunderstood the guidelines of the test in assuming the smaller waist, the better the absolute score. I clarified after and said that if he gets a perfect score at 12% or 15% bodyfat, then he should aim for that. There is absolutely no fixation on abs - at 10% bodyfat your waist is smaller than at 15% bodyfat, that's it. Therefore through my initial understanding of the test achieving a low, sustainable bodyfat level would give him the best score on the test.

My first reaction was nothing of the sort. I didn't even come close to saying, "get abs bro." I said, get to this level of bodyfat because it will make your score on the test better, oh yeah and that's the level where you see abs. Then when it was clarified that he only needed a certain measurement to get the perfect score, I said he should get the lowest bodyfat percentage he needs to get the perfect score, so no 10% is not better than 12%. If 10% gave him a better mark on the test, via a smaller waist, then it would be.

Deadlifts in SS alternate between Fridays and Wednesdays which gives a 4 day break and then a 8 day break. Deadlifting every Saturday would give me a regular 7 day break. When I was doing heavy singles for some stupid reason it was taking me 2 weeks to fully recover, so I don't see recovery being a problem.

SS has you benching twice a week and pressing once a week for week A and pressing twice/benching once for week B. I think this is enough work on these lifts for me. This is a good balance. I've noticed that since I started pressing, my shoulder issues have pretty much disappeared. Probably because the imbalance from benching between the internal and external rotators in my shoulders has diminished.

[TheAssassin]

Rippetoe has novices start the program with additions of 15, 10 then after a few weeks 5 pounds onto the bar every squat workout. I'm not a complete novice so I think the 15 or even 10 pound additions between workouts are overly ambitious for me, unless I start out at somewhere around 150 for 3x5, a good 40 pounds under what I know I can do for a 3x5.

The question is, should I start where I left off and add 5 pounds on every workout, or take a few weeks to ease into the workouts (I haven't squatted since May) and begin with something that will be (hopefully) easy?

[Acepitbull]

Rippetoe has novices start the program with additions of 15, 10 then after a few weeks 5 pounds onto the bar every squat workout. I'm not a complete novice so I think the 15 or even 10 pound additions between workouts are overly ambitious for me, unless I start out at somewhere around 150 for 3x5, a good 40 pounds under what I know I can do for a 3x5.

The question is, should I start where I left off and add 5 pounds on every workout, or take a few weeks to ease into the workouts (I haven't squatted since May) and begin with something that will be (hopefully) easy?

You could retest you 1rm on each lift and calculate your sets from where you are at now. I would also be ambitious on progressing with the lifts. Try adding 10lb to DL and Squat each week and 5 pounds to Bench and Press. You can always drop back if need be.

[red_donn]

Why set the bodyfat that low? What makes 10% better than 12% besides in an aesthetic sense?

When someone is at 20% bodyfat and just needs to slim down their waist, your first reaction was to say "try and get to a level with abs even though that is dropping your bodyfat to less than half what it currently is." Do you tell someone who hasn't deadlifted 315 yet that the next step is 550? No, of course not.

10% as an initial goal makes no sense, except when considering a fixation on abs. That "tidbit" is the exact reason that the vast majority of the population naturally associates 10% with the basic desirable level of bodyfat.

Because I already said I misunderstood the guidelines of the test in assuming the smaller waist, the better the absolute score. I clarified after and said that if he gets a perfect score at 12% or 15% bodyfat, then he should aim for that. There is absolutely no fixation on abs - at 10% bodyfat your waist is smaller than at 15% bodyfat, that's it. Therefore through my initial understanding of the test achieving a low, sustainable bodyfat level would give him the best score on the test.

My first reaction was nothing of the sort. I didn't even come close to saying, "get abs bro." I said, get to this level of bodyfat because it will make your score on the test better, oh yeah and that's the level where you see abs. Then when it was clarified that he only needed a certain measurement to get the perfect score, I said he should get the lowest bodyfat percentage he needs to get the perfect score, so no 10% is not better than 12%. If 10% gave him a better mark on the test, via a smaller waist, then it would be.

Perhaps you are missing my point - why did you say 10% rather than any other other number?

Get back to me with a response on that before you try and argue against a subtle bias towards a certain aesthetic point. The fact that you misunderstood the test is irrelevant to the point - 8% or 12% could have been cited, but you said 10% for a reason.

I'm not a Starting Strength fanatic, proud to become a fat fuck with minimal muscle mass or strength while mocking everyone who looks better than me. Wanting abs is not a problem in my book - I plan to have them while weighing over 220 as a long term goal. I happen to start seeing abs below 13% bodyfat, so really that is about me not being "moderately fat" at 15% while at that weight.

Nothing at all wrong with an aesthetic touch, but you should be aware of it. Quit denying it, openly say that you associate leanness with looking good by a certain set of standards, and be fucking happy with that. People who pretend to be all about performance while secretly hiding aesthetic goals tend to have a lot more trouble progressing than people who openly keep both in perspective..

Rippetoe has novices start the program with additions of 15, 10 then after a few weeks 5 pounds onto the bar every squat workout. I'm not a complete novice so I think the 15 or even 10 pound additions between workouts are overly ambitious for me, unless I start out at somewhere around 150 for 3x5, a good 40 pounds under what I know I can do for a 3x5.

The question is, should I start where I left off and add 5 pounds on every workout, or take a few weeks to ease into the workouts (I haven't squatted since May) and begin with something that will be (hopefully) easy?

Sounds like you are thinking about starting with the weight too high. If 190 3x5 is anywhere close to your max (maybe it's around 205 3x5 judging from your comment) then you need to back up further and build up speed with a good running start.

You haven't squatted in months and are thinking about starting at around 75% of your max, so your workouts would probably feel like tough grinds much too soon. If you are following a SS template, then plan on 10 pounds per week at first, shifting into 5 pounds a week anywhere from week 3 or upwards. This means increasing the weight 60 pounds over the first two weeks, and planning to hit your old PR's around week 4-5. You might want to start with 115 on the bar, looking at that plan.

Remember, this is pretty much what Rippetoe would tell you if you were asking him how to run his program. I'm doing things similarly, because it's what I know, but with a twist.

I'm going to be back squatting twice a week and adding ten pounds per workout until that becomes too difficult. I'm starting out with roughly 60% of my 1 rep max and plan on taking my first cycle alone for a 6-8 week ride at minimum. My twist is to do two sets of 5, followed by a set of 5+ reps taking the set up as high as I can short of failure. By the end of the cycle, I'll be grinding out 3x5's, but this will allow me to derive more benefit from the early weeks.

[Fearless6691]

I'm not a Starting Strength fanatic, proud to become a fat fuck with minimal muscle mass or strength while mocking everyone who looks better than me. Wanting abs is not a problem in my book

I think I agree with you but you are confusing me. Are you saying you are proud to be a fat fuck or are you mocking SS for having that mentality.

[red_donn]

I'm not a Starting Strength fanatic, proud to become a fat fuck with minimal muscle mass or strength while mocking everyone who looks better than me. Wanting abs is not a problem in my book

I think I agree with you but you are confusing me. Are you saying you are proud to be a fat fuck or are you mocking SS for having that mentality.

Mocking the Starting Strength message board warriors. First, in the early days of the internet, there were the HIT Jedi's. Now, there are the SS troopers.

As always, there are good ideas at the top and some people who execute it well, but a lot of them look like shit, lift like shit, and talk a whole lot of shit.

[TheAssassin]

Rippetoe has novices start the program with additions of 15, 10 then after a few weeks 5 pounds onto the bar every squat workout. I'm not a complete novice so I think the 15 or even 10 pound additions between workouts are overly ambitious for me, unless I start out at somewhere around 150 for 3x5, a good 40 pounds under what I know I can do for a 3x5.

The question is, should I start where I left off and add 5 pounds on every workout, or take a few weeks to ease into the workouts (I haven't squatted since May) and begin with something that will be (hopefully) easy?

You could retest you 1rm on each lift and calculate your sets from where you are at now. I would also be ambitious on progressing with the lifts. Try adding 10lb to DL and Squat each week and 5 pounds to Bench and Press. You can always drop back if need be.

I thought about testing my 1RM's. The thing is my lifts (except the press) have probably gone down a good 50 pounds since the last time I trained. After taking breaks, it usually takes me around 3-4 weeks to not feel pathetic again, so if I were to test for the 1RM it would need to be after 3-4 weeks of lifting to really be accurate.

Maybe this long layoff from training would actually turn me into a novice, and my gains for the first few weeks would be novice like, meaning I could in fact add 15 pounds then 10 onto my squat every workout and then from there go straight in 5 pounds plus.

Good call on the 10lb deadlift addition. I've never pulled to absolute death, even on my PR's so that should be possible for quite some time.