Kettlebell Thread

[KC Masterpiece]

haha sure: Russian Kettlebell Certified ("hard-style") and Girevoy Sport. GS's are badass motherfuckers and if you're thinking about doing some KB stuff, work toward GS-style programming. RKC's are dramatic babies who make up their own shit.

[red_donn]

Select RKC's and most GS guys are 10000x more badass than 99% of lifters.

When we say "lifters" I take it we mean the general population, and not competitive strength athletes. Otherwise....

[KC Masterpiece]

Well definitely the general population. And I was specifically referring to powerlifters who in general are very poorly conditioning. Of course they're stronger than KB'ers but doing the long cycle with two 32kg kettlebells requires a good deal of strength and extreme levels of conditioning. Olympic lifters at a high level are generally more awesome than powerlifters on the same level are, so I'm no so much referring to them.

"Level 1" of the WKC KB routine (level one of 20) is more than most powerlifters can handle, imho. Once you get to level 20, then you start training to do what real giveriks do and will only get to that level after several months if not years of further consistent training.

But to be clear, I will still do powerlifting-type training for strength and GS kettlebell stuff for conditioning; it's in that sense that I plan on keeping them in my training arsenal indefinitely. And in terms of how much more awesome giveriks are than lifters, its because no amount of crossfit-inspired or circuit training (and I would say even sled pushing or sprinting) will allow you to reach the level of conditioning required to exert yourself for 10 minutes straight with a fairly high load carried in your hands.

[JonB]

haha sure: Russian Kettlebell Certified ("hard-style") and Girevoy Sport. GS's are badass motherfuckers and if you're thinking about doing some KB stuff, work toward GS-style programming. RKC's are dramatic babies who make up their own shit.

Maybe I'm a n00b, but I have never heard of Girevoy Sport. But I'm quite interested.

[KC Masterpiece]

Here's a decent overview (from the CF Journal...):

http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/59 ... ethods.pdf

RKC or "rigid-" or "hard-style" aims for max strength with a very heavy bell (e.g. pressing a 106lb bell overhead once), whereas GS or "fluid-style" aims for max reps with a moderately heavy bell (e.g. jerking a 70lb bell overhead 175 times in 10 minutes).

GS aims at for short explosive movements countered with very relaxed movements, where as HS is constant tension throughout the duration of the movement.

[JonB]

Here's a decent overview (from the CF Journal...):

http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/59 ... ethods.pdf

RKC or "rigid-" or "hard-style" aims for max strength with a very heavy bell (e.g. pressing a 106lb bell overhead once), whereas GS or "fluid-style" aims for max reps with a moderately heavy bell (e.g. jerking a 70lb bell overhead 175 times in 10 minutes).

GS aims at for short explosive movements countered with very relaxed movements, where as HS is constant tension throughout the duration of the movement.

Thank you for all your help. I like how fluid it is. All I need now is something to guide me into the program. That and to get some good kettlebells. lol

I've been wanting to incorporate kettlebells into my routine for a while, but I wasn't really sure where to begin. At one point I was going to buy "The Martial Arts kettlebell connection," but most of the reviews I read said it was great for KB work, but wasn't very Marital Arts specific.

[discoowl]

Well definitely the general population. And I was specifically referring to powerlifters who in general are very poorly conditioning. Of course they're stronger than KB'ers but doing the long cycle with two 12kg kettlebells requires a good deal of strength and extreme levels of conditioning. Olympic lifters at a high level are generally more awesome than powerlifters on the same level are, so I'm no so much referring to them.

"Level 1" of the WKC KB routine (level one of 20) is more than most powerlifters can handle, imho. Once you get to level 20, then you start training to do what real giveriks do and will only get to that level after several months if not years of further consistent training.

But to be clear, I will still do powerlifting-type training for strength and GS kettlebell stuff for conditioning; it's in that sense that I plan on keeping them in my training arsenal indefinitely. And in terms of how much more awesome giveriks are than lifters, its because no amount of crossfit-inspired or circuit training (and I would say even sled pushing or sprinting) will allow you to reach the level of conditioning required to exert yourself for 10 minutes straight with a fairly high load carried in your hands.

fixed - if you guys are in doubt about how fucking amazing KB's are for conditioning, or want to give you DL a boost - just try a class. I challenge you to finish with only 10 kgs let alone the 12 / 16 I use.

Here are some good articles:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... ebells_101
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... olic_swing

[Portugeese]

NO!!! YOU FILL BUCKET WITH SAND AND CARRY IT

[KC Masterpiece]

Well definitely the general population. And I was specifically referring to powerlifters who in general are very poorly conditioning. Of course they're stronger than KB'ers but doing the long cycle with two 12kg kettlebells requires a good deal of strength and extreme levels of conditioning. Olympic lifters at a high level are generally more awesome than powerlifters on the same level are, so I'm no so much referring to them.

"Level 1" of the WKC KB routine (level one of 20) is more than most powerlifters can handle, imho. Once you get to level 20, then you start training to do what real giveriks do and will only get to that level after several months if not years of further consistent training.

But to be clear, I will still do powerlifting-type training for strength and GS kettlebell stuff for conditioning; it's in that sense that I plan on keeping them in my training arsenal indefinitely. And in terms of how much more awesome giveriks are than lifters, its because no amount of crossfit-inspired or circuit training (and I would say even sled pushing or sprinting) will allow you to reach the level of conditioning required to exert yourself for 10 minutes straight with a fairly high load carried in your hands.

fixed - if you guys are in doubt about how fucking amazing KB's are for conditioning, or want to give you DL a boost - just try a class. I challenge you to finish with only 10 kgs let alone the 12 / 16 I use.

Here are some good articles:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... ebells_101
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... olic_swing

I don't get what you fixed. You changed it from 32kg to 12kg...

Also those two links describe using RKC techniques...

[KC Masterpiece]

Just to further clarify:

RKC, "RS", "HS" Swing:



GS, "FS" Swing:



Two completely different movements for two completely different goals.

[red_donn]

I think that a Mod should move the entire kettlebell discussion into a separate thread. There's a lot of potentially GREAT information here, and it would be good to give it a full discussion a little separate from the "general intro" that this thread was intended to be.

Well definitely the general population. And I was specifically referring to powerlifters who in general are very poorly conditioning. Of course they're stronger than KB'ers but doing the long cycle with two 32kg kettlebells requires a good deal of strength and extreme levels of conditioning. Olympic lifters at a high level are generally more awesome than powerlifters on the same level are, so I'm no so much referring to them.

"Level 1" of the WKC KB routine (level one of 20) is more than most powerlifters can handle, imho. Once you get to level 20, then you start training to do what real giveriks do and will only get to that level after several months if not years of further consistent training.

But to be clear, I will still do powerlifting-type training for strength and GS kettlebell stuff for conditioning; it's in that sense that I plan on keeping them in my training arsenal indefinitely. And in terms of how much more awesome giveriks are than lifters, its because no amount of crossfit-inspired or circuit training (and I would say even sled pushing or sprinting) will allow you to reach the level of conditioning required to exert yourself for 10 minutes straight with a fairly high load carried in your hands.

And strongman competitors sit atop the heap, like silverback gorillas in the midst of a chimp troop.

I admit that I have some very specific reservations about high-level GS stuff, after a cursory examination. Namely, skill-specific conditioning is put at an absolute premium in GS sport. That is something that I'm always leery of, as I have said before.

I like the contrast that I found here as a complementary review to Cotter's rather one-sided account:
http://omahakettlebell.blogspot.com/2009/01/rkc-system-vs-girevoy-sport.html

A very, very big difference is that RKC people may be trying for a fixed number of reps as quickly as possible, while GS people will be trying for as many reps as possible within a fixed period of time. Both of these would appear to be excellent methods, and can develop towards a relatively similar end point - both may end up having the same max number of reps at the five minute mark, for instance.

Now, what's very interesting is the difference in how tight one remains. In the case of a swing, for instance, remaining tight allows one to throw the kettlebell back between the legs so that the next swing can be completed in less time. This may make excellent sense, if one has the ability to hit many more reps than will be required in the test. As Cotter points out, however, it will rarely make sense to do this if you are pushing towards a given time and don't want to blow your load.

This reminds me a little of an all-out 400 meter sprint versus a run of a mile or more. In the latter situation you will always be pacing yourself, in the 400 you can go almost all-out. In a 100-200 meter you definitely have too.

Now, studies show that more explosive/higher-intensity effort for a short period has carryover to higher endurance activities, but not vice-versa in trained subjects. At what point might his hold true for a GS-style method? It probably won't kick in for a 10 minute cycle, since the weight is increased, but I wonder if the inclusion of the less efficient, higher power RKC method wouldn't have other very valuable effects.

1) If the KB is properly used as a strength-endurance tool, would using it for 10 minute GS cycles some of the time, but also hitting a given rep range, say 80 swings in 3 minutes, yield benefits?
2) Would the conflicting forms cause issues with the learning curve?
3) Does practicing "resting under load" in the GS style yield benefits past a certain point, or does this and other techniques, such as the pendulum movement, primarily become about getting better at kettlebells, rather than developing better general strength-endurance? Mixing kettlebells, farmer's walks, sled pulls, etc tends to prevent the athlete from developing skill efficiencies in a given style that don't carry over much into fighting.

Really, number three is simply asking at what point GS style training may cease to have an optimally efficient carryover, since skill-endurance is so prominent a factor. I'd wager to say that it wouldn't come along for a good while, though, at least for months of training.

Since I've got very little experience with kettlebells, I can't really speak fully to this

[discoowl]

Well definitely the general population. And I was specifically referring to powerlifters who in general are very poorly conditioning. Of course they're stronger than KB'ers but doing the long cycle with two 12kg kettlebells requires a good deal of strength and extreme levels of conditioning. Olympic lifters at a high level are generally more awesome than powerlifters on the same level are, so I'm no so much referring to them.

"Level 1" of the WKC KB routine (level one of 20) is more than most powerlifters can handle, imho. Once you get to level 20, then you start training to do what real giveriks do and will only get to that level after several months if not years of further consistent training.

But to be clear, I will still do powerlifting-type training for strength and GS kettlebell stuff for conditioning; it's in that sense that I plan on keeping them in my training arsenal indefinitely. And in terms of how much more awesome giveriks are than lifters, its because no amount of crossfit-inspired or circuit training (and I would say even sled pushing or sprinting) will allow you to reach the level of conditioning required to exert yourself for 10 minutes straight with a fairly high load carried in your hands.

fixed - if you guys are in doubt about how fucking amazing KB's are for conditioning, or want to give you DL a boost - just try a class. I challenge you to finish with only 10 kgs let alone the 12 / 16 I use.

Here are some good articles:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... ebells_101
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... olic_swing

I don't get what you fixed. You changed it from 32kg to 12kg...

Also those two links describe using RKC techniques...

well firstly, the 'fix' was just to highlight how difficult these swings can be even in low weight (I usually only use a 12 for an hours class which consists of 3 x 10 mins + warm up and down). I find the differences made between the rigid and fluid styles interesting mainly b/c what we generally do seems like a cross between the two styles ie. a rigid grip with a more fluid technique and lower weight done to time (10 mins) rather than reps.

[Fearless6691]

Well definitely the general population. And I was specifically referring to powerlifters who in general are very poorly conditioning. Of course they're stronger than KB'ers but doing the long cycle with two 32kg kettlebells requires a good deal of strength and extreme levels of conditioning. Olympic lifters at a high level are generally more awesome than powerlifters on the same level are, so I'm no so much referring to them.

"Level 1" of the WKC KB routine (level one of 20) is more than most powerlifters can handle, imho. Once you get to level 20, then you start training to do what real giveriks do and will only get to that level after several months if not years of further consistent training.

But to be clear, I will still do powerlifting-type training for strength and GS kettlebell stuff for conditioning; it's in that sense that I plan on keeping them in my training arsenal indefinitely. And in terms of how much more awesome giveriks are than lifters, its because no amount of crossfit-inspired or circuit training (and I would say even sled pushing or sprinting) will allow you to reach the level of conditioning required to exert yourself for 10 minutes straight with a fairly high load carried in your hands.

Ehhh very well, but I don't see the KB guys doing well against PLrs in their sport.

[JonB]

By suggestion

[red_donn]

By suggestion

Thanks!

I feel like a concentrated O-lifting, bodyweight work, and assorted conditioning threads might be a good move. I'll put together some work on O-lifting, and overhead lifting in general.